21% Topic

2004-09-26 06:12:38 pm

Because that's what Corollax named it. Wink

He called it that because once you laid the first bomb (of the jump-not the wasted one), you don't touch the ground. So, theoretically, you could bomb jump horizontally without falling.

GreenMamba

2004-09-26 08:38:55 pm

What luck, there's french fry stuck in my beard.

I guess that kind of makes sense, I suppose.

GameCube04

2004-09-26 11:29:13 pm

Maybe the H could stand for high or horizontal, depending on what you're doing. It would make more sense to call it a "high bomb jump" when it's being done on a wall or something.

edit: Also, as far as I can tell, you actually get the most height from an HBJ/DBJ, not an HBJ/3BJ.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_hbj_stuff.avi

Compare the height of those two jumps. It seems to me that I get higher with the first one... although they are pretty close I suppose.

Trebor

2004-09-27 12:17:22 am

Nice job, Sparky.

As far as I can tell, that looks like the normal 22% bomb jump, save for the placement of bomb 1 (2, actually. I don't count the wasted one). It appears to be placed earlier than normal.

bartendorsparky

2004-09-27 05:08:21 pm

always move fast

Apparantly, lower 3 to upper 3 was already solved. But just in case, or even if it was, i found a not-to-hard way to do it.

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/geo_3_to_3_hbj.avi

Also, i was under the impression that 3 > raised 2 wasnt yet solved. Im not sure if this is true, but either way:

http://www.metroid2002.com/bartendorsparky/geo_3_to_2_no_sj.avi

EDIT: that second video is completely useless. It only works with the roof up, and i wasnt aware until kip told me, so meh.

BoostR

2004-09-27 06:34:18 pm

Nice work there. :o

It's gonna be frustrating to do all of this with only 99 energy.

Not to mention we haven't found a way to raise 1 or 2 yet. :?

smilingjack13

2004-09-27 10:24:26 pm

Heh, late last night I did lower 3 to upper 3 just to prove that it was possible, even though it had apparently been solved already. Well, I just got it captured, and then saw that Bartendor had posted a vid of him doing it first. Heh...

Just so it doesn't feel like I wasted my time, here is the link to it:

http://www.metroid2002.com/smilingjack13/geo_core_spinner_3_spider_track_hbj.avi

Bartendor and I appear to have used the same strat, except he goes into the corner while he bomb jumps. It looks like this gets him more height. Also, I had space jump in this vid.

So basically, this vid is completely useless. :(

I aM A mAnO

2004-09-27 11:10:51 pm

GC04: what codec would i need to download to watch that video, I was just at divx.com and got the newest divx, what else can i do, i get sound but no video

justin

2004-09-28 12:17:06 am

Quote from I aM A mAnO:

GC04: what codec would i need to download to watch that video, I was just at divx.com and got the newest divx, what else can i do, i get sound but no video

I can't watch any of his either.

elyscape

2004-09-28 12:20:43 am

He uses what my computer calls "Indeo(R) video 5". It comes installed on most Windows machines.

kip

2004-09-28 01:36:53 am

Quote:

that second video is completely useless.

I wouldn't say that. Remember that after someone got in the bomb slot, assuming that it happened with the second spinner down, they would have to get back to the third one since you fall after the cutscene. The 3 > 2 jump without space jump is very hard if it's possible... but with this, it would be easy, since the roof would be up this time (although this thing was previously known).

All depends on how the bomb slot is going to be entered if a way is found; if you have to raise 2 in the first place to get in, then this won't have any use. Otherwise it's something of a "free pass" for the second time you'd have to do 3 > 2.

Tzyr

2004-09-28 03:35:57 am

Quote from smilingjack13:

So basically, this vid is completely useless. :(

Not at all man, not at all. Just because it was done before does not make it useless. Never feel bad for working hard on something, only to have it already done.

You know why? Because if you only work on things that you know our done, things other/easier methods might not be found.

An example, why should I use a metroid in MQA when just dashing is easier? Oh, because if you notice, by doing that, you can skip using a pb, or two, you can solve the room without sj/spider..and so on

The other reason? Cause you learn things yourself. Look, I use to suck at bomb jumps. Everyone here pretty much had do learn 3bj/tbj, ladder jumps because they did not have early sj. When I got into MP, I had SJ first when I landed on the planet..so I had no use for using bomb jumps.

It was not till I did a no sj game that I had to learn how to bomb jump.. I mean, you get to ice temple, and you have to dbj all the way up.

Another thing, was because I was not good at bomb jumping at the time, I would find other ways of passing rooms. Like, in shorelines,you had to wall tbjm to get to the ledge. Well, I found that you could dash to the ledge. Was nice and easy for me, seemed to help others. And I did not have to use a wall tbjm.

So man, dun feel back. Just because you do something, and find out it was already used, maybe you did it in a different way..maybe you found a way of solving something else..or in the end, at least you were able to do something that you learned a new thing.

[quote="smilingjack13"]So basically, this vid is completely useless.  :([/quote]

Not at all man, not at all.  Just because it was done before does not make it useless.  Never feel bad for working hard on something, only to have it already done.

You know why?  Because if you only work on things that you know our done, things other/easier methods  might not be found.

An example, why should I use a metroid in MQA when just dashing is easier?  Oh, because if you notice, by doing that, you can skip using a pb, or two, you can solve the room without sj/spider..and so on

The other reason?  Cause you learn things yourself.  Look, I use to suck at bomb jumps.  Everyone here pretty much had do learn 3bj/tbj, ladder jumps because they did not have early sj.  When I got into MP, I had SJ first when I landed on the planet..so I had no use for using bomb jumps.

It was not till I did a no sj game that I had to learn how to bomb jump..  I mean, you get to ice temple, and you have to dbj all the way up.

Another thing, was because I was not good at bomb jumping at the time, I would find other ways of passing rooms.  Like, in shorelines,you had to wall tbjm to get to the ledge.  Well, I found that you could dash to the ledge.  Was nice and easy for me, seemed to help others.  And I did not have to use a wall tbjm.

So man, dun feel back.  Just because you do something, and find out it was already used, maybe you did it in a different way..maybe you found a way of solving something else..or in the end, at least you were able to do something that you learned a new thing.

nate

2004-09-28 08:04:44 am

i can start converting all of his videos to real divx, or he can start learning to use virtualdub and do it himself. ;P

kip

2004-09-28 06:43:06 pm

Don't know if this has been noticed, but I made 3 > 2 with a simple dash after looking more closely at everything this time:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/geo_3_to_2_dash.avi

I was forced to have space jump to reach 3, so I don't know for sure if it's possible without it (ignore the space jump in the video, as it doesn't matter). If the dash itself is still possible, the only other thing that can mess it up is not being able to jump on the rim of the third spinner. I can't remember if you can get on the rim of a spinner with just one jump and no space jump, and I can't test it myself right now since I deleted my no space jump game to remake it on another card. If someone can check that out it would be appreciated (also keep in mind that you can't face forward and just l-jump on it; in this situation you are jumping backwards while locked on something, so the quality of the jump is probably less than an l-jump).

If that's fine, and it just turns out that the dash itself isn't possible when we're able to reach 3 and try it, I've been thinking a scan dash would make it instead (using the scan point I originally got in the bomb slot with, which requires 1 to be raised). You seem to get a much better angle with the scan point, the only problem is that you need to be on the edge of the spinner to acquire it, then you need to bring it up to the rim before dashing. It doesn't take long to finish scanning it (which renders it unusable), so this would need to be done very fast and you would only get one try.

For what it's worth, I also tried dashing into the bomb slot with one jump, and I don't see how it would happen since you don't get the height from the edge of the spinner; try it from the rim and you don't get the distance instead.

Don't know if this has been noticed, but I made 3 > 2 with a simple dash after looking more closely at everything this time:

http://www.metroid2002.com/kip/geo_3_to_2_dash.avi

I was forced to have space jump to reach 3, so I don't know for sure if it's possible without it (ignore the space jump in the video, as it doesn't matter). If the dash itself is still possible, the only other thing that can mess it up is not being able to jump on the rim of the third spinner. I can't remember if you can get on the rim of a spinner with just one jump and no space jump, and I can't test it myself right now since I deleted my no space jump game to remake it on another card. If someone can check that out it would be appreciated (also keep in mind that you can't face forward and just l-jump on it; in this situation you are jumping backwards while locked on something, so the quality of the jump is probably less than an l-jump).

If that's fine, and it just turns out that the dash itself isn't possible when we're able to reach 3 and try it, I've been thinking a scan dash would make it instead (using the scan point I originally got in the bomb slot with, which requires 1 to be raised). You seem to get a much better angle with the scan point, the only problem is that you need to be on the edge of the spinner to acquire it, then you need to bring it up to the rim before dashing. It doesn't take long to finish scanning it (which renders it unusable), so this would need to be done very fast and you would only get one try.

For what it's worth, I also tried dashing into the bomb slot with one jump, and I don't see how it would happen since you don't get the height from the edge of the spinner; try it from the rim and you don't get the distance instead.

BoostR

2004-09-29 01:01:39 am

You can easily jump on the rim of a spinner without space jump, even while locked on to something. I've done it many, many times.

I also noticed that the dash you use is possible going from raised 1 > 3. You lock onto the same puddle spore, I think, and bend the dash crazy for it to work. You also have that "sliding across the ground" effect when you make it. It's pretty difficult, but a good dbjm will make the jump as well (either way, you still have to perform the trick well).

kip

2004-09-29 02:47:11 am

Ah, thanks. :) It's good to know.

The 1 > 3 dash sounds interesting... sliding across the ground is an obvious sign that there isn't much leeway, like with 3 > 2. I just hope 3 > 2 is possible without space jump. I mean, I'd try but I've never done 1 > 2 with 1 raised (I have with space jump, but that doesn't matter). I need to get back to trying that regularly, even if there isn't a good chance of me doing the 3 > 2 dash on the same try.

BoostR

2004-09-29 03:35:39 pm

You really need to get an AR, kip. Wink

GameCube04

2004-09-29 09:06:41 pm

Well I feel really stupid right now. I was just able to do the Vent Shaft bomb jump without SJ, but I wasn't recording. >_< Not that big of a deal I guess since sparky already did it, but I got some massive height on this one. I cleared the ledge EASILY... after the unmorph animation finished I was still falling for about half of a second. The bomb jump I used was the standard Vent Shaft jump. I'm surprised that this was unsolved for a while... I've spent no more than 20 minutes trying this room without SJ. Anyway, back to playing I guess.

smilingjack13

2004-10-02 11:12:37 am

That sucks, GC04. I would have liked to see that. :(

Since this topic is dead, I feel the urge to make a post in it. I was playing Geo Core earlier this week. For some reason, I was under the impression that you could not stall on the invisible ledges above the spinners after you raised them. Also, I thought that you could not dash off these ledges. Anyway, I was wrong in both of these cases. I'm not sure why I thought this, but I decided to post this information incase anyone else was thinking wrong like I was.

You certainly do not have enough height to dash off spinner 1's invisible ledge to spinner 2. I dashed to spinner 2 off the rim of spinner 1 before I raised it. I went on to raise spinner 2, then go back to spinner 1, raise it, and then try the dash off the invisible ledge to spinner 2. This way, the height you must get is a little less. I came very close to getting up a couple of times, but I'm not sure if that much height is possible. On one dash, I stalled on the edge of the second spinner's platform, but I did not float up or anything. It was like kip's stall on the top platform in Phendrana's Edge.

Anyway, if I'm posting old information then just ignore me. Hehe.

That sucks, GC04. I would have liked to see that.  :(

Since this topic is dead, I feel the urge to make a post in it. I was playing Geo Core earlier this week. For some reason, I was under the impression that you could not stall on the invisible ledges above the spinners after you raised them. Also, I thought that you could not dash off these ledges. Anyway, I was wrong in both of these cases. I'm not sure why I thought this, but I decided to post this information incase anyone else was thinking wrong like I was.

You certainly do not have enough height to dash off spinner 1's invisible ledge to spinner 2. I dashed to spinner 2 off the rim of spinner 1 before I raised it. I went on to raise spinner 2, then go back to spinner 1, raise it, and then try the dash off the invisible ledge to spinner 2. This way, the height you must get is a little less. I came very close to getting up a couple of times, but I'm not sure if that much height is possible. On one dash, I stalled on the edge of the second spinner's platform, but I did not float up or anything. It was like kip's stall on the top platform in Phendrana's Edge.

Anyway, if I'm posting old information then just ignore me. Hehe.

GameCube04

2004-10-03 01:07:20 am

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_1_to_2_almost.avi

Something similar to this happened to sparky, but he didn't have it on video. This is about as close as I've come... I might have had a few tries that were closer, but not by much. I also didn't have space jump here so who knows, this jump just might be possible.

Phazon Siphon

2004-10-03 01:37:14 am

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but couldn't you just do a diagonal-ish HBJ to get more horizontal distance, as well as height?

GameCube04

2004-10-03 01:50:47 am

Theoretically, yes... but nobody has been able to ladder an HBJ, and I think it's impossible. Why? Simply because you hardly have any control over yourself midair when bomb jumping, so you really can't go back and forth that much to do an HBJ. This is also why bomb ladders get more distance than TBJ ladders. A 3BJ ladder might be able to make that gap, but the problem with that is the upper spinner; you hit your head every time. This is also somewhat of a problem with regular bomb ladders... if you see in the vid, it kind of looks like I hit it, but I think I barely missed it, but still it's a pretty small gap.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_geo_core_spider_block_dash.avi

Not sure if this is possible without SJ or not. I think that if you dashed and hit a part of the mountain at a weird angle, it could get you the height/distance to get onto the block. Also note that it's possible to use this scan dash with the scan point at the bottom of the first spinner. Not sure if it's worth trying though since getting to the spider block is theoretically solved, albeit very difficult.

Theoretically, yes... but nobody has been able to ladder an HBJ, and I think it's impossible.  Why?  Simply because you hardly have any control over yourself midair when bomb jumping, so you really can't go back and forth that much to do an HBJ.  This is also why bomb ladders get more distance than TBJ ladders.  A 3BJ ladder [i]might[/i] be able to make that gap, but the problem with that is the upper spinner; you hit your head every time.  This is also somewhat of a problem with regular bomb ladders... if you see in the vid, it kind of looks like I hit it, but I think I barely missed it, but still it's a pretty small gap.

http://www.metroid2002.com/gamecube04/gc04_geo_core_spider_block_dash.avi

Not sure if this is possible without SJ or not.  I think that if you dashed and hit a part of the mountain at a weird angle, it could get you the height/distance to get onto the block.  Also note that it's possible to use this scan dash with the scan point at the bottom of the first spinner.  Not sure if it's worth trying though since getting to the spider block is theoretically solved, albeit very difficult.

bushwacker

2004-10-03 12:18:17 pm

I've been eagerly following the progress of the 21% game over the past few weeks and I'm just amazed at some of the new solutions... Great Tree Hall in particular was a jaw-dropper.

Anyway, I've taken to learning the HBJ and I'm starting to get the timing down pretty well. What I've been able to do is consistent with what you guys have already seen: wall HBJ's get the most height of anything and a normal HBJ gets just a tad more height than a DBJ. I'm trying to apply these things to Geo Core (as many others no doubt are), but so far, nothing. I tried to HBJ straight up the pillar to the bomb slot, but it's too high :(

As for doing diagnol HBJ's, I don't think they're impossible, but they probably don't have much application. I can move horizontally with the first couple bombs, but the horizontal distance is worthless for the little amount of time you're in the air, and concentrating on moving horizontally tends to compromise the amount of height I get. Maybe if you were a robot, you could get max height and still move horizontally, but I don't think robots like to play Metroid Prime.

And one other thing I'd like to mention, is that the Shorelines "solr flare" that lets you skip Ice Ruins East (without Space Jump), is overkill. A normal DBJM gets you to that platform just fine, but it has to be a darn good one. I did it twice this morning :o

I've been eagerly following the progress of the 21% game over the past few weeks and I'm just amazed at some of the new solutions... Great Tree Hall in particular was a jaw-dropper.

Anyway, I've taken to learning the HBJ and I'm starting to get the timing down pretty well. What I've been able to do is consistent with what you guys have already seen: wall HBJ's get the most height of anything and a normal HBJ gets just a tad more height than a DBJ. I'm trying to apply these things to Geo Core (as many others no doubt are), but so far, nothing. I tried to HBJ straight up the pillar to the bomb slot, but it's too high  :(

As for doing diagnol HBJ's, I don't think they're impossible, but they probably don't have much application. I can move horizontally with the first couple bombs, but the horizontal distance is worthless for the little amount of time you're in the air, and concentrating on moving horizontally tends to compromise the amount of height I get. Maybe if you were a robot, you could get max height and still move horizontally, but I don't think robots like to play Metroid Prime.

And one other thing I'd like to mention, is that the Shorelines "solr flare" that lets you skip Ice Ruins East (without Space Jump), is overkill. A normal DBJM gets you to that platform just fine, but it has to be a darn good one. I did it twice this morning  :o

Ekarderif

2004-10-03 03:45:23 pm

LeCoureur103, nice to see you're still alive ;). I hope the 100% game is doing god for you :P.

As for the "horizontal" bomb jump, the biggest application I see right now is going 1 > 2 with 1 raised. Since a DBJ is incredibly close and a 3BJ hits your head on the top platform, there's no doubt in my mind that a good HBJ would make that jump. And if that's done, all we need is to raise 1 and 2 and go from the spider blocks to door or go to the 2nd spider block in Samus form.

justin

2004-10-03 05:13:21 pm

Please. No more Indeo. Crying or Very sad