Yellow or Orange

jdratlif:

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jdratlif

2005-10-07 12:29:41 pm

Am I colorblind?

I always thought the power bomb doors were orange. But the manual calls them yellow. However, the manual also refers to power bombs as 'super bombs', so I'm not inclined to blindly trust the manual when my eyes disagree.

I can see how it might look yellow, but it looks more orange than yellow to me. What do other people think?

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Chanoire:

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Chanoire

2005-10-07 03:15:23 pm

I've always considered them yellow. However, it's really a yellow-orange, so it could go either way. It might also depend on your TV; I think in some video I saw a door looked way more orange than I usually think of them being.

And, of course, people have slightly different definitions of colors. Two different colors might be distinct (with different words, I mean) to one person and the same to another. I remember reading a really interesting Slashdot comment about this last year or so...ha, and I sent it to my mom, so I actually have it. It's really long, but interesting:

Quote from Some person at /.:

I am a Polish speaker/reader and so is my wife. I left Poland at the age of four but my wife only did so four years ago. In fact to become competent in Polish I took two quarters of Polish at Uni. The other students were Russian/Slavic and linguistics concentrators. It was a very bizarre way of learning Polish I suppose, but before that I felt very inadequate about being illiterate and sounding like a four year old whenever I spoke Polish.

So what I know is that in Polish there are also two words for blue: niebieski and blekitni. (Okay so I had to strip-off the accents because slashcode did not like them.) They are light-blue and dark-blue respectively. (Really niebieski is related to the word for sky so you might think of this word as sky-blue, I do and that is what I meant earlier about learning Polish from a linguist probably was different from a native Polish speakers experience.)

Now you might think this is simple, well not really. Here is a translation of what happens in practice with some regularity. My wife says, "Bring me the blue one," where blue is the word for either light-blue or dark-blue depending on the color of the object. I oblige but then hear a response of, "No I said the blue one not the green one." Bizarre because notice I wrote blue and green. It is not like she said light-blue and I brought the dark-blue widget. Sometimes she claims I brought the purple thing instead. These exchanges are entirely in Polish because this what we speak predominantly at home.

Okay now I am not color-blind. For my work I need to pass a test every two years and in the report I always pass all of the tests, even those for which a certain percentage of people that are not typically considered color-blind would not pass. I can clearly distinguish between a wide spectrum of colors.

After a while of this my mother noticed it once so we did a little test with the family. My mother, father, uncle, aunt, and grandmother were all part of it. All of them had spent the majority of their lives in Poland and almost without fail they would agree with the colors that my wife gave to objects. Then we repeated the test with my brother and his girlfriend who except for a vacation had not spent any time in Poland. They agreed with me the majority of the time.

Now this test was not scientific in any way and it did involve alcohol because it happened during a family get-together, but I still think that native Polish speakers vs English speakers think of colors as different because of their languages. What I mean is that there are many shades of colors that are sort of between green and blue and others that are between green and purple and given a proper ambiguous color such as this Polish speakers will tend to identify it differently than English speakers.

So what I am trying to say after all of this is that the example of the Russian language having two words for blue is sort of a red herring. It is irrelevant to the real issues. In fact given two people that are not color blind, one a Russian and one an English speaker, they should not have any extra difficulty in being able to distinguish between color chips as being different or not. What I am saying is that they will think of the same color chip as a different color in their minds. Now this is subtle, and I tend to agree with the parent poster that it is a special case, but definitely an example of how language influences understanding and meaning. Here is a final true story to illustrate this idea.

My wife's favorite color is light-blue. Once I bought her a gift that was a light blue dress. When she got it she said that the dress was nice, but that, "Don't you know by now that I do not like the way I look in green?" Think about intend and effect in that example and you will see what I mean about language being important.

I've always considered them yellow.  However, it's really a yellow-orange, so it could go either way.  It might also depend on your TV; I think in some video I saw a door looked way more orange than I usually think of them being.

And, of course, people have slightly different definitions of colors.  Two different colors might be distinct (with different words, I mean) to one person and the same to another.  I remember reading a really interesting Slashdot comment about this last year or so...ha, and I sent it to my mom, so I actually have it.  It's really long, but interesting:

[quote="Some person at /."]I am a Polish speaker/reader and so is my wife. I left Poland at the age of four but my wife only did so four years ago. In fact to become competent in Polish I took two quarters of Polish at Uni. The other students were Russian/Slavic and linguistics concentrators. It was a very bizarre way of learning Polish I suppose, but before that I felt very inadequate about being illiterate and sounding like a four year old whenever I spoke Polish.

So what I know is that in Polish there are also two words for blue: niebieski and blekitni. (Okay so I had to strip-off the accents because slashcode did not like them.) They are light-blue and dark-blue respectively. (Really niebieski is related to the word for sky so you might think of this word as sky-blue, I do and that is what I meant earlier about learning Polish from a linguist probably was different from a native Polish speakers experience.)

Now you might think this is simple, well not really. Here is a translation of what happens in practice with some regularity. My wife says, "Bring me the blue one," where blue is the word for either light-blue or dark-blue depending on the color of the object. I oblige but then hear a response of, "No I said the blue one not the green one." Bizarre because notice I wrote blue and green. It is not like she said light-blue and I brought the dark-blue widget. Sometimes she claims I brought the purple thing instead. These exchanges are entirely in Polish because this what we speak predominantly at home.

Okay now I am not color-blind. For my work I need to pass a test every two years and in the report I always pass all of the tests, even those for which a certain percentage of people that are not typically considered color-blind would not pass. I can clearly distinguish between a wide spectrum of colors.

After a while of this my mother noticed it once so we did a little test with the family. My mother, father, uncle, aunt, and grandmother were all part of it. All of them had spent the majority of their lives in Poland and almost without fail they would agree with the colors that my wife gave to objects. Then we repeated the test with my brother and his girlfriend who except for a vacation had not spent any time in Poland. They agreed with me the majority of the time.

Now this test was not scientific in any way and it did involve alcohol because it happened during a family get-together, but I still think that native Polish speakers vs English speakers think of colors as different because of their languages. What I mean is that there are many shades of colors that are sort of between green and blue and others that are between green and purple and given a proper ambiguous color such as this Polish speakers will tend to identify it differently than English speakers.

So what I am trying to say after all of this is that the example of the Russian language having two words for blue is sort of a red herring. It is irrelevant to the real issues. In fact given two people that are not color blind, one a Russian and one an English speaker, they should not have any extra difficulty in being able to distinguish between color chips as being different or not. What I am saying is that they will think of the same color chip as a different color in their minds. Now this is subtle, and I tend to agree with the parent poster that it is a special case, but definitely an example of how language influences understanding and meaning. Here is a final true story to illustrate this idea.

My wife's favorite color is light-blue. Once I bought her a gift that was a light blue dress. When she got it she said that the dress was nice, but that, "Don't you know by now that I do not like the way I look in green?" Think about intend and effect in that example and you will see what I mean about language being important.[/quote]

nate:

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nate

2005-10-07 04:00:44 pm

君だけの

光になると

nice pseudo whorf hypothesis. (starts out like he's going to blame it on the color range name differences between the languages but then ends up saying it's probably a cultural thing working independently of language, complementing it rather than being controlled by it.)

well, whatever ... i'd bet you anything the doors look extremely different on early 90s japanese tvs versus early 90s american tvs due to the liberties the japanese tv makers took with the ntsc spec to make asian skin tones look more natural. emulate any nes game and then compare the colors on that to the colors on your tv to see what i mean. from what i've heard, it's a wonder it only jumped from yellow to orange and not to purple or something. go never twice the same color.

jdratlif:

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jdratlif

2005-10-07 07:16:29 pm

Quote from njahnke:

emulate any nes game and then compare the colors on that to the colors on your tv to see what i mean. from what i've heard, it's a wonder it only jumped from yellow to orange and not to purple or something.

It's been so long since I saw my SNES... Guess I'll stick with the manual and call them yellow. I have an LCD, too. I wonder if that affects things.

Quote from njahnke:

go never twice the same color.

rofl. I haven't heard that in some time. :-)

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RT-55J

2005-10-07 08:14:03 pm

Armor Guardian

Quote from Chanoire:

I've always considered them yellow. However, it's really a yellow-orange, so it could go either way. It might also depend on your TV; I think in some video I saw a door looked way more orange than I usually think of them being.

And, of course, people have slightly different definitions of colors. Two different colors might be distinct (with different words, I mean) to one person and the same to another. I remember reading a really interesting Slashdot comment about this last year or so...ha, and I sent it to my mom, so I actually have it. It's really long, but interesting:

Quote from Some person at /.:

Wall o' Text (TM)

Occam's Razor is telling me that the translations of the words niebieski and blekitni are merely approximations or something.

Chanoire:

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Chanoire

2005-10-07 09:15:49 pm

But the distinction between them wasn't the point, it was that even though both speakers were essentially fluent they defined "blue" differently. He considered more things to be blue than she did. The language issue is peripheral; it was just the means by which they discovered the cultural issue. It's more like the poem saying "Roses are red, violets are blue" when logically violets should be violet. Actually, my mom and I used to have arguments over whether that color was blue or purple all the time, and considering she raised me, and in a fairly artistic environment, we should have the same definitions of color. Of course, I tend to think 90% of the world is wrong when it comes to color anyway (the way it's taught in schools alone may make me home-school any children I have), but this was really rather a strange case. Incidentally, we don't really have those arguments now, but I forget which of us has changed our stance. I think I'm agreeing more with her now that my purple dress was actually blue.

But the distinction between them wasn't the point, it was that even though both speakers were essentially fluent they defined "blue" differently.  He considered more things to be blue than she did.  The language issue is peripheral; it was just the means by which they discovered the cultural issue.  It's more like the poem saying "Roses are red, violets are blue" when logically violets should be violet.  Actually, my mom and I used to have arguments over whether that color was blue or purple all the time, and considering she raised me, and in a fairly artistic environment, we should have the same definitions of color.  Of course, I tend to think 90% of the world is wrong when it comes to color anyway (the way it's taught in schools alone may make me home-school any children I have), but this was really rather a strange case.  Incidentally, we don't really have those arguments now, but I forget which of us has changed our stance.  I think I'm agreeing more with her now that my purple dress was actually blue.

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nate

2005-10-07 09:21:29 pm

君だけの

光になると

lcds will make things look more similar to a tv in my experience. crts are worlds darker.

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arkarian

2005-10-07 09:30:24 pm

mindfulness

fully erect

They're yellow to me. Never seen them as any other colour.

spineshark:

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spineshark

2005-10-07 10:04:35 pm

in the name of justice!

I would have to agree, though "Dark Yellow" (i.e. what it looks like close to the metal part of the barrier) is a bizarre concept to me so I tend to think of it as yellow in front and orangish behind.

Chanoire:

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Chanoire

2005-10-07 10:30:29 pm

Yeah, that was a recent realization of mine (though obvious in retrospect, of course), that we tend to have a very narrow definition of yellow. Not only do yellows tending toward green seem more likely to be called yellow-greens rather than greenish yellows even when it's a very small amount of green, but we don't seem to have much of a concept of darkened yellows at all. Yellow with black mixed in is usually read as an olive green or chartreuse, even though there's no actual green in it (that is, a higher proportion of blue/cyan than red/magenta). The closest we seem to get to dark yellow is a darkened yellow-orange, and that only registers as a variety of yellow in the context of brighter, truer yellows around it; otherwise it's orange.

I think something of the sort happens at the opposite of the color wheel, too. I theorize that a really true ultramarine, the exact center between cyan and magenta, when lightened tends to register more as gray than as lavender. I haven't fully examined this idea yet, though. Need to pull out my color process manual and examine it.

Yeah, that was a recent realization of mine (though obvious in retrospect, of course), that we tend to have a very narrow definition of yellow.  Not only do yellows tending toward green seem more likely to be called yellow-greens rather than greenish yellows even when it's a very small amount of green, but we don't seem to have much of a concept of darkened yellows at all.  Yellow with black mixed in is usually read as an olive green or chartreuse, even though there's no actual green in it (that is, a higher proportion of blue/cyan than red/magenta).  The closest we seem to get to dark yellow is a darkened yellow-orange, and that only registers as a variety of yellow in the context of brighter, truer yellows around it; otherwise it's orange.

I think something of the sort happens at the opposite of the color wheel, too.  I theorize that a really true ultramarine, the exact center between cyan and magenta, when lightened tends to register more as gray than as lavender.  I haven't fully examined this idea yet, though.  Need to pull out my color process manual and examine it.

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LifeMega

2005-10-08 12:22:27 am

Or you could look at Prime 2. It used the same door colors as SM. Red for missile, green for super missile, and yellow for Power Bomb. And the Prime 2 yellow door is very Yellow. Pure yellow, no hint of anything else.

jdratlif:

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jdratlif

2005-10-08 12:24:09 am

Well, I was looking up what to call the metal doors. I didn't know they had a term. I was calling them gray or flashing, but this didn't really seem to suit them.

So I read FalchonZero's walkthrough. He called them Metal doors. But he also called what I thought were orange doors "yellow doors". I might've believed him at that point, except he called red doors "purple doors". I think I have seen other people call them "purple" too, but they have never seemed purple to me. This called into question his concept of color. So then I went and found the manual (mine is packed somewhere unknown) on the Metroid Database. It called red doors red, and "orange" doors yellow.

So I went back to the game and found a door I always thought was orange. If I look closely at it, I can tell it's much closer to the color of the reserve tank indicator by Samus' energy bar or her current location marker on the map than it is to an orange. But no matter how much yellow I can see it in, when I look at the door, "orange" is what comes to mind. The back of the door is much darker; perhaps this is what's clouding my mind.

It's funny, because it reminds me of many things I read in video games as a child that I know now I misread when I've come back to play them on emulators. I used to think it was "Tangel" castle in Dragon Warrior, not "Tantegel", and I thought Mother Brain lived in "Tourain", not "Tourian". Granted I've always been slightly dyslexic, which makes the last one more understandable, but still. Maybe this "orange" door thing is like that, or perpahs I read orange in some early magazine or something when I first played. Who knows...

But I can accept the doors as yellow (I just mistyped that as orange and had to erase -- man, this thing is hard-coded in my brain), and that is what I'll call them in the program. It's what the manual says, and no one here thought it was orange like me.

Well, I was looking up what to call the metal doors. I didn't know they had a term. I was calling them gray or flashing, but this didn't really seem to suit them.

So I read FalchonZero's walkthrough. He called them Metal doors. But he also called what I thought were orange doors "yellow doors". I might've believed him at that point, except he called red doors "purple doors".  I think I have seen other people call them "purple" too, but they have never seemed purple to me. This called into question his concept of color. So then I went and found the manual (mine is packed somewhere unknown) on the Metroid Database. It called red doors red, and "orange" doors yellow.

So I went back to the game and found a door I always thought was orange. If I look closely at it, I can tell it's much closer to the color of the reserve tank indicator by Samus' energy bar or her current location marker on the map than it is to an orange. But no matter how much yellow I can see it in, when I look at the door, "orange" is what comes to mind. The back of the door is much darker; perhaps this is what's clouding my mind.

It's funny, because it reminds me of many things I read in video games as a child that I know now I misread when I've come back to play them on emulators. I used to think it was "Tangel" castle in Dragon Warrior, not "Tantegel", and I thought Mother Brain lived in "Tourain", not "Tourian". Granted I've always been slightly dyslexic, which makes the last one more understandable, but still. Maybe this "orange" door thing is like that, or perpahs I read orange in some early magazine or something when I first played. Who knows...

But I can accept the doors as yellow (I just mistyped that as orange and had to erase -- man, this thing is hard-coded in my brain), and that is what I'll call them in the program. It's what the manual says, and no one here thought it was orange like me.

jdratlif:

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jdratlif

2005-10-08 12:30:34 am

Quote from LifeMega:

Or you could look at Prime 2. It used the same door colors as SM. Red for missile, green for super missile, and yellow for Power Bomb. And the Prime 2 yellow door is very Yellow. Pure yellow, no hint of anything else.

I don't have Prime 2. I never even beat Prime. It's funny because I bought my GameCube so I could play Prime, and never played it for more than an hour.

Yeah, I know, I suck. I'm not a fan of 3-D games. That's why my favorite Metroid will always be Super Metroid, unless they come up with a really nice interface that feels good to me. I thought Doom 3 was playable. Metroid Prime just confused and angered me like the 2-D neanderthal I am.

If I had a GBA, I'd probably want to try Metroid Fusion.

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Sasuke_Kun

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2005-10-08 06:04:13 am

I often got the Super Missile and Power Bomb doors confused on MP2. But I know that I am slightly colourblind anyway.

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RT-55J

2005-10-08 12:01:14 pm

Armor Guardian

Same here, Dark_SA-X. I'm red-green color deficient along with my four brothers. My dad didn't have it and my mom was only a carrier of it. Since it's a sex-linked gene, the probability of my brothers and myself all having it is like 1 out of 32 or something.

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Sasuke_Kun

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2005-10-08 12:07:22 pm

I think I was the first outta my family to get it.

Being colourblind only really sucks in Metroid games. It makes opening doors a real hassle. Below is a list of all the doors I can't distinguish between:

Normal and Ice Beam doors on MP
Normal and Light Beam doors on MP2
Super Missile and Power Bomb doors on MP2

Can't think of any others off the top of my head, but this makes MP2 speed runs a real pain, since I must either scan the doors or test them, which could potentially waste my time and ammo.

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trh

2005-10-08 01:05:56 pm

You kind of end up knowing it in the back of your head. I can recall every door color in Prime, and I barely speed run!

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nate

2005-10-08 03:03:04 pm

君だけの

光になると

Quote from jdratlif:

I used to think it was "Tangel" castle in Dragon Warrior, not "Tantegel", and I thought Mother Brain lived in "Tourain", not "Tourian". Granted I've always been slightly dyslexic, which makes the last one more understandable, but still.

in my experience this is a normal aspect of brain development. the cartoon show "rugrats" even incorporated many of these to enhance its humor, "these" meaning subtle alterations in pronunciation that make words more palatable to the immature brain. my personal ones included "sewer-side" (ninja turtles? no, "suicide"), "hydrocy" (wet? no, "hydrocity" (sonic 3)), and "old timers' disease" ("alzheimer's disease"; i've seen this one many other places as well).

Yoshi348:

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Yoshi348

2005-10-08 05:23:19 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Quote from TRH:

You kind of end up knowing it in the back of your head. I can recall every door color in Prime, and I barely speed run!

Prime's are easy though... they're color coded to the beam, and two of them are elemental colors.

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nate

2005-10-08 08:22:47 pm

君だけの

光になると

it also helps to know the natural route a little bit so you can predict e.g. wave doors in the pirate labs because you go there after getting wave, ice in the underwater frigate and the second level of the mines, and plasma on the final level of the mines and in the impact crater.

Yoshi348:

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Yoshi348

2005-10-08 09:29:17 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

That wouldn't help you remember door colors when you're not actually playing the game, though. If you can remember those area's doors without looking at them, you can remember the colors easy.

LifeMega:

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LifeMega

2005-10-08 09:40:53 pm

I did the "Tourain" thing. I never actually noticed until one or two years ago that it was really "Tourian". I still say Tourain, just because it's hard-coded into my brain now, and because I think Tourain sounds better than Tourian. So if you see me type Tourain, don't jump down my throat about it, I know I'm misspelling it. Yeah.