Working on a new route for a any% run

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Location: Tampico, Tamaulipas, Mexico

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Azor

2006-12-05 03:26:15 pm

Phazon level: 83%

unlike many people hotarubi's run wont stop me and as im on vacation im extremely determined to break his record knowing it implies absolute perfection

im not quite a strategist and im not sure about the game's exploits i could use so i would really like any additional help

i can pull almost every trick, im having trouble with super short charge as i cant seem to pull it more than 40% of the time and i really dont understand quite much the explanation

so here im requesting modifications to a route to make it faster, i would really appreciate any minimal timesaver and if i could get some additional info about super short charge and where to practice it. hotarubi also mentioned having many mistakes and a very hard way of doing ceres fast so im gonna try and find that too

as a last comment im gonna do this run in segments seeing how the cold affects my overall hand performance

Thread title:

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

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BlueGlass

2006-12-05 05:19:15 pm

About the short charge, I "discovered" an alternate (kind of) version of doing it that allows you to get a charge every place Hotarubi does, but is much easier than trying to press the button four times exactly.

First, press the run button at the same time you would for a quick charge, but instead of holding it doown, just tap the button. After that, wait the same amount of time as between pressing forward and the first press of run, then press and hold run. If I'm not making much sense, just tell me and I'll try to explain it better.

As for segmenting, I'd say after Ceres, in red Brinstar after Power Bombs, and before Botwoon. And possibly before or after Ridley if you think you'll need it.

One thing I'd do differently as far as route goes would be to return to Crateria from Lower Norfair via Maridia, like Red Scarlet and Smokey do, as opposed to Hotarubi's returning through Brinstar. I have a possible idea of a new speed trick that would definitely make that way faster, but I'm not entirely sure it'll work as I only thought it up about five minutes ago. Basically, after entering the big grapple beam room, you'd do a short charge to the right, then spark straight up through the door in the ceiling, opening it with something or other just before Samus reaches it. (asking the TASers) Is there any way something like this would be possible?

If you just eliminate the major mistakes from Hotarubi's run, that would be about a minute right there.

About the short charge,  I "discovered" an alternate (kind of) version of doing it that allows you to get a charge every place Hotarubi does, but is much easier than trying to press the button four times exactly.

First, press the run button at the same time you would for a quick charge, but instead of holding it doown, just tap the button.  After that, wait the same amount of time as between pressing forward and the first press of run, then press and hold run.  If I'm not making much sense, just tell me and I'll try to explain it better.

As for segmenting, I'd say after Ceres, in red Brinstar after Power Bombs, and before Botwoon.  And possibly before or after Ridley if you think you'll need it.

One thing I'd do differently as far as route goes would be to return to Crateria from Lower Norfair via Maridia, like Red Scarlet and Smokey do, as opposed to Hotarubi's returning through Brinstar.  I have a possible idea of a new speed trick that would definitely make that way faster, but I'm not entirely sure it'll work as I only thought it up about five minutes ago.  Basically, after entering the big grapple beam room, you'd do a short charge to the right, then spark straight up through the door in the ceiling, opening it with something or other just before Samus reaches it.  (asking the TASers) Is there any way something like this would be possible?

If you just eliminate the major mistakes from Hotarubi's run, that would be about a minute right there.

spidey-widey:

registered on 2006-08-31 11:36:12 pm.

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spidey-widey

2006-12-05 05:55:47 pm

I think that Maridia spark would work, because it's kind of similar to Hotarubi's spark to WS, just with a greater distance. I think you could shoot up, wait a bit, and then spark so you spark through the door a little after it opens. But yeah, a TASer's input would be more valuable than mine on this matter. But I really like that idea; it's the kind of thing I wouldn't ever think of.

A big timesaver on Hotarubi would be Phantoon, as we all know. That + improvement on some small mistakes = at least a minute of improvement, perhaps two.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

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BlueGlass

2006-12-05 06:14:41 pm

Quote from spidey-widey:

I think that Maridia spark would work, because it's kind of similar to Hotarubi's spark to WS, just with a greater distance. I think you could shoot up, wait a bit, and then spark so you spark through the door a little after it opens.

I've been playing aroud with this the last fifteen minutes or so, and shooting from the ground doesn't work. Beams move oo slow and vanish. Supers move too fast and vanish, and regular missiles are slightly too slow (maybe a frame-perfect regular missile would work, though). But I think I've found a way to make it work. After charging the spark, you have to space jump on top of the lowest standable point on the ledge to your right. From there, you can shoot a missile straight up and have it hit the door. So you shoot the missile, very quickly do a spin jump right then left, then press up to do the spark. This is still mostly theory, as I haven't succeded yet (due to a combination of me sucking at keyboard controls and my emulator not having slowdown)

Oh, and the reason you're sparking through the right side of the door is that your spark will then continue all the way to the top of the next room.

EDIT: Azor, another possible improvement would be to keep track of your hits on Draygon, then kill him with a shinespark to get blue suit and use the free spark to cross back over the big room just before (like in JXQ's 100% TAS). I'm planning on doing this in my 100% run, and it saves a good deal of time, despite the part where you have to move at walking speed for a little bit.

[quote="spidey-widey"]I think that Maridia spark would work, because it's kind of similar to Hotarubi's spark to WS, just with a greater distance.  I think you could shoot up, wait a bit, and then spark so you spark through the door a little after it opens.[/quote]
I've been playing aroud with this the last fifteen minutes or so, and shooting from the ground doesn't work.  Beams move oo slow and vanish.  Supers move too fast and vanish, and regular missiles are slightly too slow (maybe a frame-perfect regular missile would work, though).  But I think I've found a way to make it work.  After charging the spark, you have to space jump on top of the lowest standable point on the ledge to your right.  From there, you can shoot a missile straight up and have it hit the door.  So you shoot the missile, very quickly do a spin jump right then left, then press up to do the spark.  This is still mostly theory, as I haven't succeded yet (due to a combination of me sucking at keyboard controls and my emulator not having slowdown)

Oh, and the reason you're sparking through the right side of the door is that your spark will then continue all the way to the top of the next room.

EDIT: Azor, another possible improvement would be to keep track of your hits on Draygon, then kill him with a shinespark to get blue suit and use the free spark to cross back over the big room just before (like in JXQ's 100% TAS).  I'm planning on doing this in my 100% run, and it saves a good deal of time, despite the part where you have to move at walking speed for a little bit.

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

Gender: male

Location: Tampico, Tamaulipas, Mexico

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Azor

2006-12-06 06:00:58 pm

Phazon level: 83%

so if im getting this right, i can short charge by doind the standard short charge where you run after 1 1/2 step
the difference is i just tao run and wait another 1 1/2 step and keep the run button pressed right??

by the phantoon timesaver, you mean not missing a hit like he did right?

as far as i know a shinespark does 150 damage while a super does 300

botwoon dies with 10 supers, 4 done with the wave beam, my question is, do i have to shoot 5 and spark? that shouldnt do as much damage as 6 supers but anyway i dont know botwoon's health

lastly, where can i view JXQ's run?? i already download it yet i cant watch it, i hear audio only. any other option?

spidey-widey:

registered on 2006-08-31 11:36:12 pm.

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spidey-widey

2006-12-06 06:14:27 pm

About the Phantoon timesaver, I mean that, and getting better attack patterns from him. Apparently, in Hotarubi's run, Phantoon gave him about the slowest attack patterns (according to Hotarubi). If you save in Red Brinstar after Power Bombs (like BlueGlass suggested), it might be easier to get a nice, quick Phantoon fight, and save 15-45 seconds on Hotarubi right there.

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Location: Tampico, Tamaulipas, Mexico

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Azor

2006-12-06 09:43:27 pm

Phazon level: 83%

no luck yet

about how many steps do you mean for quick charge blueglass??

i presse it halfway between the first time a foot touches the ground and the second time another foot does

also i went to laney's topic but catnap and saturn got me confused, now im not sure what is the super short charge

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

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BlueGlass

2006-12-07 02:23:53 am

Quote from Azor:

so if im getting this right, i can short charge by doind the standard short charge where you run after 1 1/2 step
the difference is i just tao run and wait another 1 1/2 step and keep the run button pressed right??

It works much better if you time the second press of the run button using time, not steps. The tap comes after Saus has travelled three blocks, then the press comes after an equal amount of time, not distance. I found the best place to learn the timing was in the room where you charge the spark for getting to the Wrecked Ship, as the slopes on the ground are almost perfectly positioned with when you need to press run.

Quote:

by the phantoon timesaver, you mean not missing a hit like he did right?

That and making sure you don't spend too much time waiting or Phantoon to open his eye. Hotarubi lost a full 45 seconds here due to bad luck/missing shots, but since for you it'll be the start of a segment, you can just retry until you get lucky.

Quote:

botwoon

I said Draygon, not Botwoon. Draygon takes 20 super missiles/charge ice/wave/spazer (both cause the same amount of damage to him), so shoot him 19 times (if you use regular missiles, remember that it's three missiles to a super), then my version of short charge will just barely allow you enouh space to charge a spark, so do so and hit him on the next pass. The spark will hit twice, counting as 300 more damage and killing him. It might actually hit three times, but I haven't tested that. I know it doesn't hit four times, though.

Quote:

lastly, where can i view JXQ's run?? i already download it yet i cant watch it, i hear audio only. any other option?

Download VLC, and use that to watch the run. Or, if you don't mind the legal issues, you could download the proper version of the SNES9X emulator and the Super Metroid ROM, then watch the .SMV file.

[quote="Azor"]so if im getting this right, i can short charge by doind the standard short charge where you run after 1 1/2 step
the difference is i just tao run and wait another 1 1/2 step and keep the run button pressed right??[/quote]

It works much better if you time the second press of the run button using time, not steps.  The tap comes after Saus has travelled three blocks, then the press comes after an equal amount of [i]time[/i], not distance.  I found the best place to learn the timing was in the room where you charge the spark for getting to the Wrecked Ship, as the slopes on the ground are almost perfectly positioned with when you need to press run.

[quote]by the phantoon timesaver, you mean not missing a hit like he did right?[/quote]

That and making sure you don't spend too much time waiting or Phantoon to open his eye.  Hotarubi lost a full 45 seconds here due to bad luck/missing shots, but since for you it'll be the start of a segment, you can just retry until you get lucky.

[quote]botwoon[/quote]

I said Draygon, not Botwoon.  Draygon takes 20 super missiles/charge ice/wave/spazer (both cause the same amount of damage to him), so shoot him 19 times (if you use regular missiles, remember that it's three missiles to a super), then my version of short charge will just barely allow you enouh space to charge a spark, so do so and hit him on the next pass.  The spark will hit twice, counting as 300 more damage and killing him.  It might actually hit three times, but I haven't tested that.  I know it doesn't hit four times, though.

[quote]lastly, where can i view JXQ's run?? i already download it yet i cant watch it, i hear audio only. any other option?[/quote]

Download VLC, and use that to watch the run.  Or, if you don't mind the legal issues, you could download the proper version of the SNES9X emulator and the Super Metroid ROM, then watch the .SMV file.

moozooh:

registered on 2006-01-11 12:51:46 pm.

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Location: Moscow

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moozooh

2006-12-07 09:34:10 am

Quote from Azor:

as far as i know a shinespark does 150 damage while a super does 300

150 units of damage per frame. The longer you fly "through" him, the more damage he takes. This way, it's possible to half his health in just one horizontal spark (unfortunately, you can't do it to such an extent without tools), thus killing him in two rounds. Don't know if you can even pull a horizontal spark on him unassisted, but if you manage to, you'll shave 600+ HP in that one spark (so may be a good idea for a finishing blow).

Quote from Azor:

lastly, where can i view JXQ's run?? i already download it yet i cant watch it, i hear audio only. any other option?

1. Install ffdshow and use any DirectShow-capable player (WMP, MPC, Light Alloy, you name it).
2. Get VLC or MPlayer.
3. Watch it via the emulator (the best choice since you can adjust the speed and watch the input).

Quote from Azor:

also i went to laney's topic but catnap and saturn got me confused, now im not sure what is the super short charge

Short charge = [trying] not to press the dash button when unneeded.
Shortest charge (a.k.a. ultra-short charge, a.k.a. ashibumi charge) = tapping forward, instead of holding it, until pressing dash for the first time (hard to do, but saves something around 1-2 tiles of distance if done right; the trick is to keep the running animation going without accelerating).

[quote="Azor"]as far as i know a shinespark does 150 damage while a super does 300[/quote]
150 units of damage [i]per frame[/i]. The longer you fly "through" him, the more damage he takes. This way, it's possible to half his health in just one horizontal spark (unfortunately, you can't do it to such an extent without tools), thus [url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3003/SM%20-%20Draygon%202-round%20kill.smv]killing him in two rounds[/url]. Don't know if you can even pull a horizontal spark on him unassisted, but if you manage to, you'll shave 600+ HP in that one spark (so may be a good idea for a finishing blow).

[quote="Azor"]lastly, where can i view JXQ's run?? i already download it yet i cant watch it, i hear audio only. any other option?[/quote]
1. Install [url=http://www.free-codecs.com/download/FFDShow.htm]ffdshow[/url] and use any DirectShow-capable player (WMP, MPC, Light Alloy, you name it).
2. Get VLC or [url=http://www.mplayerhq.hu/design7/dload.html]MPlayer[/url].
3. Watch it via the emulator (the best choice since you can adjust the speed and watch the input).

[quote="Azor"]also i went to laney's topic but catnap and saturn got me confused, now im not sure what is the super short charge[/quote]
Short charge = [trying] not to press the dash button when unneeded.
Shortest charge (a.k.a. ultra-short charge, a.k.a. ashibumi charge) = tapping forward, instead of holding it, until pressing dash for the first time (hard to do, but saves something around 1-2 tiles of distance if done right; the trick is to keep the [i]running animation[/i] going without accelerating).

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

Gender: male

Location: Tampico, Tamaulipas, Mexico

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Azor

2006-12-07 11:50:47 am

Phazon level: 83%

lol, sorry about not seeing draygon

anyway, ive been training at the room before entering wrecked ship, 1 before shinesparking all the way through it

i managed to get a shine almost exactly as thedestroyable block ends, something has to be wrong as hotarubi's charge is done before tha block

from the left most part of the room i tap dash on the first diagonal tile and a bit before the second one

also when you say blocks im assuming is the same as the ones at wrecked ship right??

edit: god im so unlucky, just downloaded VLC and it did played the avi but after 2 or 3 seconds it freezes

edit: oh god!! finally!! i swear that if i knew you moozooh i would give you a hug, mplayer managed to play it perfectly

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.

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Saturn

2006-12-07 01:11:51 pm

If you can manage to get a Charge in Draygons room pretty well, I would definitely recommend to do Shinespark damage on Draygon, even on console. With perfect timing you can damage him up to 2250 HP with just ONE horizontal shinespark (much more than a diagonal or vertical). I'm sure that one can easily do more than 1000 HP even on console that way.

Here is a demo-video that shows how to kill Draygon in only 2 rounds with the mentioned Shinespark trick. It's TASed but it gives a very good idea on how to execute it correctly:

http://rapidshare.com/files/6501178/Super_Metroid_-_Draygon_2-round_kill.avi.html

Moozooh accidentally posted the wrong link to the smv. Here the correct one: Draygon 2-round kill

And original post with a detailed explanation for it: (from TASvideos)

Quote from Saturn:

Draygon is the only boss who is vulnerable to Super Jumps. A Super Jump does 150 points damage per frame on Draygon. With optimal position (like in the movie) you can hit him for 15 frames that way, which is 2250 damage per jump (4500 for both). The other 1500 were taken out with a 900 damage Wave-PB charge and 600 from 2 Super Missiles. Not sure if this is the most optimal way, but I didn't bother to test more exactly for now.

And regarding the Short/Shortest Charge, what moozooh said.

If you can manage to get a Charge in Draygons room pretty well, I would definitely recommend to do Shinespark damage on Draygon, even on console. With perfect timing you can damage him up to 2250 HP with just ONE horizontal shinespark (much more than a diagonal or vertical). I'm sure that one can easily do more than 1000 HP even on console that way.

Here is a demo-video that shows how to kill Draygon in only 2 rounds with the mentioned Shinespark trick. It's TASed but it gives a very good idea on how to execute it correctly:

http://rapidshare.com/files/6501178/Super_Metroid_-_Draygon_2-round_kill.avi.html

Moozooh accidentally posted the wrong link to the smv. Here the correct one: [url=http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/3003/SM%20-%20Draygon%202-round%20kill.smv]Draygon 2-round kill[/url]

And original post with a detailed explanation for it: (from TASvideos)
[quote="Saturn"]Draygon is the only boss who is vulnerable to Super Jumps. A Super Jump does 150 points damage per frame on Draygon. With optimal position (like in the movie) you can hit him for 15 frames that way, which is 2250 damage per jump (4500 for both). The other 1500 were taken out with a 900 damage Wave-PB charge and 600 from 2 Super Missiles. Not sure if this is the most optimal way, but I didn't bother to test more exactly for now.[/quote]

And regarding the Short/Shortest Charge, what moozooh said.

moozooh:

registered on 2006-01-11 12:51:46 pm.

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Location: Moscow

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moozooh

2006-12-07 02:31:38 pm

Woopsie, indeed, I acidentally copypasted the wrong link. Embarassed

BTW, Saturn, would you please come on IRC for a bit?

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

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BlueGlass

2006-12-07 04:40:49 pm

Azor, that sounds like about the right time for the button presses. Are you sure you just aren't pressing down early enough? It's quite possible to get a charge this way just before reaching the shootable block.

Moozooh and Saturn: That. Is. Awesome.
Especially since it can be done (to a lesser extent) on console. And it's even more awesome than just speeding up the Draygon fight, because now I'll also be able to save all those Supers, which will drastically speed up my Ridley fight (30 Supers + 1 PB = dead Ridley).

Must go practice.

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Location: Tampico, Tamaulipas, Mexico

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Azor

2006-12-07 06:05:33 pm

Phazon level: 83%

looks like i got no luck searching for screenshots on google, anyway here are 2 of them, hopefully you can tell me when and i might understand this a bit more

Edit: nevermind i just got the super short charge to work, thanks blueglass

ok so this are my checkpoints, id like to know if there is any TASer here that could help me stablish checkpoints for time

1st: Ceres
2nd: landing-red brinstar
3rd:red brinstar-pre botwoon
4th: pre botwoon-before ridley
5th:before ridley-end of game

i might aswell save again on my way out of norfair, i dont really lose time and i can save more with a better playstyle at tourian

up to now the only things ive done are to improve my kraid battle(3 rounds rather than 4) and learn super short charge, im gonna try and master it though

the only doubts i have are, how much time do i save going through hotarubi's way to get into lower norfair? because there sometimes im low on health so i stick to the old route. im probably low on health for doing the bluesuit on draygon where i avoid collecting health from him as that is many time lost, i also spark on my way to plasma and that makes me lose more health

my second is, is it really better to reach tourian through green brinstar?? i personally find it better to do the old route as i can recharge supers really fast if i avoid losing health

looks like i got no luck searching for screenshots on google, anyway here are 2 of them, hopefully you can tell me when and i might understand this a bit more

[URL=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/57/metroid1za5.png[/img][/URL]

Edit: nevermind i just got the super short charge to work, thanks blueglass

ok so this are my checkpoints, id like to know if there is any TASer here that could help me stablish checkpoints for time

1st: Ceres
2nd: landing-red brinstar
3rd:red brinstar-pre botwoon
4th: pre botwoon-before ridley
5th:before ridley-end of game

i might aswell save again on my way out of norfair, i dont really lose time and i can save more with a better playstyle at tourian

up to now the only things ive done are to improve my kraid battle(3 rounds rather than 4) and learn super short charge, im gonna try and master it though

the only doubts i have are, how much time do i save going through hotarubi's way to get into lower norfair? because there sometimes im low on health so i stick to the old route. im probably low on health for doing the bluesuit on draygon where i avoid collecting health from him as that is many time lost, i also spark on my way to plasma and that makes me lose more health

my second is, is it really better to reach tourian through green brinstar?? i personally find it better to do the old route as i can recharge supers really fast if i avoid losing health