Question about Phantoon

2006-10-11 03:16:02 pm

Is Phantoon completely ramdom or what? He's the single biggest obstacle in my speedruns, and strangely I never hear anyone talking about him. I fight him using Red Scarlet's method, which works quite well. The only problem is, he takes forever to open his eye. Is there any trick to get him to open it immediately? If it were a 50/50 chance it wouldn't be so bad, but I swear I've fought the "slow" Phantoon ten times in a row with no luck! It really is like there's a "slow" and a "fast" version of the him. On a couple of rare occasions I've beaten him in 45 seconds or less. On my recent 36 minute run, it takes over a minute, and that seems to be one of the better times lately. Any help would be appreciated.

Thread title:

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.

2006-10-11 04:46:07 pm

You are lucky that I just recently did some Phantoon fight tests for a possible any% TAS so I can answer this question. The first time when Phantoon opens his eye is entirely set by the frame on which you enter his room. It absolutely doesn't matter what you do in his room before he appears. All later eye openings depend on which frame you hit him the previous time (especially the final hit that makes him disappear). So I guess this won't help any speedrunner to speed up the fight because knowing ahead and hitting the "fast" frame is impossible in realtime. There is nothing you can do about it.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2006-10-11 05:43:11 pm

I had figured Phantoon was completely random. Thanks for the confirmation, Saturn.

griggski:

registered on 2005-02-26 01:16:36 pm.

Location: South Carolina

2006-10-12 10:46:30 am

That might help more than you know, Saturn. I usually make it from the entrance of the wrecked ship to Phantoon's room in the exact same amount of time; I've gotten much more consistent lately, which would explain why he never opens his eye quickly anymore, even though he sometimes used to. I'll have to play around with this and see what happens. Thanks.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2006-10-12 10:52:34 am

The chances that you've made it to Phantoon's room at the same exact sixtieth of a second even twice in a row are exceptionally low, especially in an SS.

nate:

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registered on 2003-09-15 06:16:34 pm.

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nate

2006-10-12 11:03:25 am

君だけの

光になると

you're assuming the time at which phantoon opens his eye would vary dramatically if he arrived even one frame earlier or later. in my experience with such systems, that is not the case. there is a lot of evidence from stuff like sess's fusion run, in which he would save very close to an eye door and (of course using superior keyboard control) reach the eye door within a few frames every time, and of course it was never opening properly any of those times, so he had to either bust his ass to get there much faster or take a segment in which he had minor efficiency problems just getting to the eye door right at the start of the segment.

imo there is validity behind what griggski said.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

view all posts by Kejardon

2006-10-12 11:35:09 am

But IIRC griggski was doing an SS (unless he's switched to segmented after getting that 36), and in an SS run you'd be pretty lucky to reach Phantoon's room twice in the same second, let alone frame or few frames. Of course, if you are now doing a segmented run, griggski, then it's very likely you'll be reaching Phantoon's room at almost the same time each attempt. And it would be an extremely good idea to wait for a segment with a very fast Phantoon fight.

Also, nate, your avatar was glaring at me.

Kejardon:

registered on 2004-12-07 07:21:36 pm.

Gender: male

Kejardon

2006-10-12 12:06:33 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

If you're doing segments, it doesn't matter. Taking a different amount of time to load your game will also affect Phantoon, unless he doesn't use the normal RNG (I haven't checked yet, but I really doubt he wouldn't use it)

nate:

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registered on 2003-09-15 06:16:34 pm.

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nate

2006-10-12 12:23:36 pm

君だけの

光になると

my point stands though ... it's not truly random, and the favorable frames are not evenly distributed.

Yoshi348:

registered on 2003-09-15 04:52:52 pm.

Gender: male

Location: My own little world

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Yoshi348

2006-10-12 12:24:56 pm

PAGE BREAKER

Ready and willing.

Then again, most speed runs I've seen have a load time that seems to be incredibly consistent. I swear they could load in their SLEEP.

griggski:

registered on 2005-02-26 01:16:36 pm.

Location: South Carolina

2006-10-12 12:53:31 pm

I'm currently doing a segmented run, and it has been WEEKS since Phantoon has opened his eye quickly. At this point, I'm willing to try anything.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

view all posts by Dragonfangs

2006-10-12 12:57:25 pm

Quote from griggski:

I'm currently doing a segmented run, and it has been WEEKS since Phantoon has opened his eye quickly. At this point, I'm willing to try anything.

Cool that you're doing segmented. And in that case I can definitely see you getting to Phantoon's room at the same frame multiple times. At this rate, we'll soon have an entirely new set of records for SM.

nate:

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registered on 2003-09-15 06:16:34 pm.

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nate

2006-10-12 01:05:24 pm

君だけの

光になると

once again, he does not have to reach the room on the same frame to get similar results from phantoon. it's entirely possible that several seconds' worth of frames all clustered together will have bad results.

Dragonfangs:

registered on 2004-11-02 05:38:34 pm.

Gender: male

Dragonfangs

2006-10-12 02:55:27 pm

Erm... from my experience with doing TASes I can't agree with nate's theories. There are no "clusters" of frames with bad results, it's just that "good" results are pretty rare.

Especially when we're talking about things like the eye-doors opening in Fusion, it's completely random. I mean it's still based on the frame you enter the room but it's not like a cluster of several frames where the door shoots, and then a new cluster where it opens, there wcould just as well be a single frame in about 30 or so where the door opens and with the rest it shoots.

spidey-widey:

registered on 2006-08-31 11:36:12 pm.

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spidey-widey

2006-10-12 05:23:58 pm

So, basically, if you're not doing a TAS, it's random?

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2006-10-12 05:27:40 pm

That's pretty much what Saturn said in the second post.

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.

view all posts by moozooh

2006-10-12 05:42:32 pm

I think it is...

Believe it or not, the randomness regarding Phantoon is indeed based on single frames and it may dramatically switch if entering even one frame later or earlier. I got 4 different actings of Phantoon when entering his room on various different frames. He rather starts to move to the top right after appearing or to the bottom left each time. And for each of this 2 variants there is a long and a short version. The short one causes Phantoon to open his eye after around 80 frames from the point where he starts to move in a direction (no matter which one). This is the strategy used in TASes to kill Phantoon in one round. However I'm not sure what probability there is for each of this 4 variations but I think it is the same for each case. In other words you have a ~50% chance to get a fast eye opening or a 25% one to also get the desired direction Phantoon is moving along with it.

So although I wish you, griggski, that your theory of somehow controlling this situation does work but from the facts, as BlueGlass already said, you always have to enter the room on the exact same frame (1/60 of a second) each time in order to get the same result which is definitely not possible without extreme luck. In a segmented run it's possibly best to just repeat this fight as long as you get lucky with the randomness there.

I think it is...

Believe it or not, the randomness regarding Phantoon is indeed based on single frames and it may dramatically switch if entering even one frame later or earlier. I got 4 different actings of Phantoon when entering his room on various different frames. He rather starts to move to the top right after appearing or to the bottom left each time. And for each of this 2 variants there is a long and a short version. The short one causes Phantoon to open his eye after around 80 frames from the point where he starts to move in a direction (no matter which one). This is the strategy used in TASes to kill Phantoon in one round. However I'm not sure what probability there is for each of this 4 variations but I think it is the same for each case. In other words you have a ~50% chance to get a fast eye opening or a 25% one to also get the desired direction Phantoon is moving along with it.

So although I wish you, griggski, that your theory of somehow controlling this situation does work but from the facts, as BlueGlass already said, you always have to enter the room on the exact same frame (1/60 of a second) each time in order to get the same result which is definitely not possible without extreme luck. In a segmented run it's possibly best to just repeat this fight as long as you get lucky with the randomness there.

moozooh:

registered on 2006-01-11 12:51:46 pm.

Gender: male

Location: Moscow

moozooh

2006-10-12 05:46:23 pm

Quote from BlueGlass:

The chances that you've made it to Phantoon's room at the same exact sixtieth of a second even twice in a row are exceptionally low, especially in an SS.

I'd say there are no distinct numbers that are strictly bound to each frame of a second. Instead, there are patterns (determined by the room states). When I tried TASing that second-to-last room of Ceres (the one with the falling debris), I noted that the steam puffs and locations of the debris were repeating themselves in about 8 or 10 different ways, depending on the frame I came in. I also must note that JXQ did extremely well in catching the most (?) suitable pattern without any slowdowns.

So it's not the 1/60 of a seconds griggski is consistent in, but a pattern. I don't know how many room states are there for Phantoon (probably not that much, judging by the consistency), but nate may be absolutely right in that quickest one may be quite rare and thus pretty unreliable.

EDIT: So, if Saturn's calculations are right, there are four room states for Phantoon, which can be grouped into two: the long ones and the short ones. Therefore, your best bet in a segmented run is to start shooting him after ~80 frames starting from the point described by Saturn. To acquire the precision needed to choose the right frame after which you can start firing, do a following thing: roll into a ball and lay a bomb as soon as you see Phantoon start moving, then quickly unmorph and adjust your position. Right after you see the explosion, you should start firing and running towards Phantoon at the lowest speed possible. The math behind this strategy: each bomb has a 60 frames timer. Add that to the lag of your reaction in laying it + the time for a missile to reach the eye. Should be more or less 80 frames.

I also remember Michael Flatley (the author of the unfinished 100% TAS who discovered and/or applied most of the presently known tricks including arm-pumping and Phantoon one-rounding; it was this run that gave JXQ the inspiration to create his own) saying that one could one-round Phantoon on a console. While that was a little dubious at best (although I do respect Flatley's exceptional abilities and love for performing tricks; who knows, he may have one-rounded Phantoon on a console for real), I know it's definitely possible to kill him in two rounds. To do that, you should spam as many missiles in Phantoon on the first round as possible (if you succeed in stunning him, then you'll most certainly be able to finish him on the second round).

I'll do some more tests tomorrow (or a day after that), I think. If I succeed with a more or less consistent strategy to kill him in two rounds, that is going to save quite some time in segmented runs.

[quote="BlueGlass"]The chances that you've made it to Phantoon's room at the same exact sixtieth of a second even twice in a row are exceptionally low, especially in an SS.[/quote]
I'd say there are no distinct numbers that are strictly bound to each frame of a second. Instead, there are patterns (determined by the room states). When I tried TASing that second-to-last room of Ceres (the one with the falling debris), I noted that the steam puffs and locations of the debris were repeating themselves in about 8 or 10 different ways, depending on the frame I came in. I also must note that JXQ did extremely well in catching the most (?) suitable pattern without any slowdowns.

So it's not the 1/60 of a seconds griggski is consistent in, but a pattern. I don't know how many room states are there for Phantoon (probably not that much, judging by the consistency), but nate may be absolutely right in that quickest one may be quite rare and thus pretty unreliable.

EDIT: So, if Saturn's calculations are right, there are four room states for Phantoon, which can be grouped into two: the long ones and the short ones. Therefore, your best bet in a segmented run is to start shooting him after ~80 frames starting from the point described by Saturn. To acquire the precision needed to choose the right frame after which you can start firing, do a following thing: roll into a ball and lay a bomb as soon as you see Phantoon start moving, then quickly unmorph and adjust your position. Right after you see the explosion, you should start firing and running towards Phantoon at the lowest speed possible. The math behind this strategy: each bomb has a 60 frames timer. Add that to the lag of your reaction in laying it + the time for a missile to reach the eye. Should be more or less 80 frames.

I also remember Michael Flatley (the author of the unfinished 100% TAS who discovered and/or applied most of the presently known tricks including arm-pumping and Phantoon one-rounding; it was this run that gave JXQ the inspiration to create his own) saying that one could one-round Phantoon on a console. While that was a little dubious at best (although I do respect Flatley's [url=http://www.own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=81]exceptional abilities[/url] and love for [url=http://www.own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=247]performing tricks[/url]; who knows, he may have one-rounded Phantoon on a console for real), I know it's definitely possible to kill him in two rounds. To do that, you should spam as many missiles in Phantoon on the first round as possible (if you succeed in stunning him, then you'll most certainly be able to finish him on the second round).

I'll do some more tests tomorrow (or a day after that), I think. If I succeed with a more or less consistent strategy to kill him in two rounds, that is going to save quite some time in segmented runs.

PAL-Player:

registered on 2005-08-03 03:19:21 am.

view all posts by PAL-Player

PAL-Player

2006-10-13 02:39:25 am

Just a theory by me:
If you know Lufia (RPG on SNES) there you can fight Gades for the first time in a tower. Normally you're about to loose the fight...
There if you're always going the same way to him he is always doing the same pattern of fighting, even the damage he is making is identical.
If you are just doing one step differnt on your way to him, then he acts different in the fight. With on your way i mean from the save position till the position he appears.
Just a theory. And yes this happend on console 3 times in a row that he exactly did the same things and damage in the fight.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

view all posts by moozooh

2006-10-13 03:45:45 am

Wait, so you really think there's a possibility that Phantoon can be one-rounded on console? Because if so, there goes about thirty seconds off of every segmented run. =)

moozooh:

registered on 2006-01-11 12:51:46 pm.

Gender: male

Location: Moscow

moozooh

2006-10-13 09:40:49 am

Well, theoretically, nothing prevents you from one-rounding him on a console. The only real problem is maintaining that very slow running speed, which would definitely involve releasing the forward button multiple times within certain intervals, otherwise you just bump into Phantoon or move out of your aiming range.
Too bad Flatley hasn't visited our forums for a very long time (over a year, I think), so I guess he can't elaborate on the exact timing strats.

Two-rounding Phantoon is many times easier, though, and will save much time by its own.

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.

2006-10-13 10:18:17 am

Don't forget that you also have to shot the Missiles at the earliest possible frame in order to keep Phantoon stunned during the one round kill. Firing a Missile already one frame too late will almost always give Phantoon enough time to disappear. So unless you have a turbo controller I don't think one-rounding Phantoon will ever be possible on console. Even 2 rounds are very improbable but maybe possible after inhuman ammounts of training with this method.

griggski:

registered on 2005-02-26 01:16:36 pm.

Location: South Carolina

view all posts by moozooh

2006-10-13 11:35:13 am

Ummm..."one rounding" Phantoon? Sorry, I haven't seen or heard of such a thing. I just use the method Red Scarlet uses in her 100% run. I would love to hear about it, or see a video.

moozooh:

registered on 2006-01-11 12:51:46 pm.

Gender: male

Location: Moscow

moozooh

2006-10-13 11:54:15 am

Quote from Saturn:

Even 2 rounds are very improbable but maybe possible after inhuman ammounts of training with this method.

Well, who knows... sub-37 SS run has also deemed near-impossible until the last week. ;)

And since boss fights (especially Phantoon and Draygon, where a single lost opportunity often leads to a couple of lost seconds) are easily the most potentially time wasting thing in this game, we should think how to improve them in the first place, since there could be about a minute worth of yet unrecovered time.

However, with all that being said, I must admit that I haven't been able to achieve any consistent result. Either my skills are that much subpar (man, I really need a pocket Ajbolt89), or I'm doing it a bit wrong. My most successful first round left Phantoon with 1800 health left, which means I had to somehow deal him 1200 more damage on the second round before the finishing blow. I need to develop another methodology, most probably involving some alternating between charged spazer/wave/ice (?) shots and spamming missiles. That could work to a certain extent, actually...

Quote from griggski:

Ummm..."one rounding" Phantoon? Sorry, I haven't seen or heard of such a thing. I just use the method Red Scarlet uses in her 100% run. I would love to hear about it, or see a video.

Watch this run. It incorporates nearly every one of the known speed tricks to date, so it may give you some inspiration.

[quote="Saturn"]Even 2 rounds are very improbable but maybe possible after inhuman ammounts of training with this method.[/quote]
Well, who knows... sub-37 SS run has also deemed near-impossible until the last week. ;)

And since boss fights (especially Phantoon and Draygon, where a single lost opportunity often leads to a couple of lost seconds) are easily the most potentially time wasting thing in this game, we should think how to improve them in the first place, since there could be about a minute worth of yet unrecovered time.

However, with all that being said, I must admit that I haven't been able to achieve any consistent result. Either my skills are that much subpar (man, I really need a pocket Ajbolt89), or I'm doing it a bit wrong. My most successful first round left Phantoon with 1800 health left, which means I had to somehow deal him 1200 more damage on the second round before the finishing blow. I need to develop another methodology, most probably involving some alternating between charged spazer/wave/ice (?) shots and spamming missiles. That could work to a certain extent, actually...

[quote="griggski"]Ummm..."one rounding" Phantoon?  Sorry, I haven't seen or heard of such a thing.  I just use the method Red Scarlet uses in her 100% run.  I would love to hear about it, or see a video.[/quote]
Watch [url=http://tasvideos.org/528M.html]this[/url] run. It incorporates nearly every one of the known speed tricks to date, so it may give you some inspiration.

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.