No-damage and morph-ball speedruns

Qlex:

registered on 2006-01-11 05:13:12 am.

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Qlex

2006-02-08 07:09:42 am

I faced recently a problem.
I searched a long time about the SM Morphball and no-damage speedruns (in m2k2 and scu), and I didn't find anything; all the post that mentionned it had dead links. I knew the times of those vids were displayed on scu, but I cannot find them anymore.
Does anyone have the speedruns, or their link? I would be grateful. Thanks.

Thread title:

DeathNoble:

registered on 2005-09-02 06:36:14 pm.

Location: Jacksonville, Florida

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DeathNoble

2006-02-08 11:34:14 am

I've been trying decide which to do a Morph Ball run for next... Super or Zero Mission? Should I go ahead and go with Super? It will be easier for me as I'm more adept with the IBJ of Super than Zero Mission.

Edit: I can't seem to even find a topic at SCU about a MorphBall run of Super... Got a link?

Raccoon Sam:

registered on 2005-07-10 12:01:04 pm.

Location: Finland

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Raccoon Sam

2006-02-08 01:22:39 pm

All I know that the other one was made by a fellow named "Snoocete"

Qlex:

registered on 2006-01-11 05:13:12 am.

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Qlex

2006-02-08 04:17:27 pm

Well, I've sought a link here on m2k2, actually Raccoon Sam asked for it there, but it is a 6 months old topic.
http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3253, I tried the link, but feel free to try again.
I saw other things, but yes I didn't find anything on scu. DeathNoble, I would support you if you were going to ballrun SM Wink

.

DeathNoble:

registered on 2005-09-02 06:36:14 pm.

Location: Jacksonville, Florida

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DeathNoble

2006-02-08 06:34:01 pm

I've got two website redesign projects pending, one of the sites I'll be working on will be my own site. So I'll be wrapped up in those. So it'll be a while. But I will do a SM Morph Ball Run. I hereby declare it as my next gaming project! :D

Raccoon Sam:

registered on 2005-07-10 12:01:04 pm.

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Raccoon Sam

2006-02-09 12:11:51 am

Quote from DeathNoble:

I've got two website redesign projects pending, one of the sites I'll be working on will be my own site. So I'll be wrapped up in those. So it'll be a while. But I will do a SM Morph Ball Run. I hereby declare it as my next gaming project! :D

Awesomeness.

Qlex:

registered on 2006-01-11 05:13:12 am.

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Qlex

2006-02-09 04:50:20 am

Yesss! I like it. Good luck with your next runs!
By the way, I don't know what time you might beat, because somebody already did a ballrun right? I can't wait to see it -_-.

DeathNoble:

registered on 2005-09-02 06:36:14 pm.

Location: Jacksonville, Florida

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DeathNoble

2006-02-09 09:48:45 am

*Shrug* If they were doing a speedrun, then they probably didn't stop to bother about items. You see, that's why I choose the path of a 100% SM MB run. 'Cuz I'm pretty sure no one else has done a 100% MB run.

Qlex:

registered on 2006-01-11 05:13:12 am.

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Qlex

2006-02-09 10:14:53 am

Hehe :) , I made the same reasoning once about ZM with no-damage, but someone had the idea before me... and about a no-damage 100% SM speedrun... well, you can't shinespark or take damage to speed up, so it will probably not be entertaining at all...

Chanoire:

registered on 2004-09-13 05:00:10 pm.

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Chanoire

2006-02-09 02:16:32 pm

It would also be impossible, since there are several items which require shinesparking.

If shinesparking were excluded from the definition of no-damage then, let's see, the only way to skip Spore Spawn would be to do enough of them to get you into crystal flash range, which could be boring. I'm trying to remember if you take damage for the zebetite skip.

toalettstol:

registered on 2005-12-15 02:55:07 pm.

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toalettstol

2006-02-09 02:31:33 pm

Quote from Chanoire:

It would also be impossible, since there are several items which require shinesparking.

I believe that the "blue suit" glitch would cover that.

Quote from Chanoire:

If shinesparking were excluded from the definition of no-damage then, let's see, the only way to skip Spore Spawn would be to do enough of them to get you into crystal flash range, which could be boring. I'm trying to remember if you take damage for the zebetite skip.

Why not just kill the Spore spawn then? I actually don't believe that you have to take damage to do the "Zebetite skip" glitch, if done correctly.

Purple Lizard:

registered on 2004-12-03 09:30:54 am.

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Purple Lizard

2006-02-09 02:33:02 pm

Quote from Chanoire:

... I'm trying to remember if you take damage for the zebetite skip.

I believe you do, since I think technically what is happening is that you are taking damage from the zebetite itself which is what embeds you into the wall, allowing you to jump through it.

Edit: Eh, I guess I was half right. It's 0 damage collision. Go search function!

Quote from Kejardon, awhile ago:

Glitching through the Zebetite with the ice beam:
First off, screw attack must be de-equipped. Freeze the bottom Rinka before it moves. Now you need some invincibility time. You can spin jump onto the Rinka and get hurt for 0 damage, so it's free invincibility time. After you're invincible, you need to spin jump onto the Rinka again. Then just jump and hold left. For some reason, low spin jumps seem to work best.

The reason this works: The collision detection detects the frozen Rinka before it bothers to detect the wall, so Samus is placed on top of the Rinka, slightly inside the wall and Zebetite. Normally, the Zebetite will hurt Samus and push her away, because Samus is now in the Zebetite's hitbox. This is why you need to be invincible.
Once you're inside the Zebetite, the game no longer blocks Samus from moving around inside of it, so you're able to simply jump right through it before the invincibility runs out.
Screw attack must be de-equipped, because you lose your invincibility time when you use the Screw attack.

[quote="Chanoire"]...  I'm trying to remember if you take damage for the zebetite skip.[/quote]

I believe you do, since I think technically what is happening is that you are taking damage from the zebetite itself which is what embeds you into the wall, allowing you to jump through it.

Edit:  Eh, I guess I was half right.  It's 0 damage collision.  Go search function!

[quote="Kejardon, awhile ago"]Glitching through the Zebetite with the ice beam:
First off, screw attack must be de-equipped. Freeze the bottom Rinka before it moves. Now you need some invincibility time. You can spin jump onto the Rinka and get hurt for 0 damage, so it's free invincibility time. After you're invincible, you need to spin jump onto the Rinka again. Then just jump and hold left. For some reason, low spin jumps seem to work best.

The reason this works: The collision detection detects the frozen Rinka before it bothers to detect the wall, so Samus is placed on top of the Rinka, slightly inside the wall and Zebetite. Normally, the Zebetite will hurt Samus and push her away, because Samus is now in the Zebetite's hitbox. This is why you need to be invincible.
Once you're inside the Zebetite, the game no longer blocks Samus from moving around inside of it, so you're able to simply jump right through it before the invincibility runs out.
Screw attack must be de-equipped, because you lose your invincibility time when you use the Screw attack.[/quote]

Qlex:

registered on 2006-01-11 05:13:12 am.

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Qlex

2006-02-09 03:19:29 pm

Hmmm... now here is the deal : Should 0 damage collision be considered as damage? Otherwise it's good if the player takes care of the zebetites quickly. I wonder what did the no-damage runner Goofy, though.
About the blue suit, I was wondering : Do you have it only after shinespark, or are there other ways? I've only seen the Draygon one, but I've heard it was possible to get it somewhere else.
Well, shinespark could be considered as no-damage, but then the frontier between damage and no-damage would be blurred : On SM, the purpose of shinespark is to take damage in order to save time. You have to say something like : "I, the speedrunner, accept taking damage but not in order to save time for I will use the shinespark in order to get only items needed for my run.", which is not convincing enough, because when you do your shinespark at different positions, some save time, whereas other do less... That is not advisable. If I had to do this, I would have choiced a non-strict 100% where you take the items you can take without taking damage such as shinesparking.

arkarian:

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registered on 2004-09-01 04:15:32 pm.

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arkarian

2006-02-09 04:43:01 pm

mindfulness

fully erect

Quote from Qlex:

Hmmm... now here is the deal : Should 0 damage collision be considered as damage?

No, that would be silly, as the player is not taking any damage.

Chanoire:

registered on 2004-09-13 05:00:10 pm.

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Chanoire

2006-02-09 05:28:49 pm

It seems unlikely to me that blue suit could be used for the Maridia mainstreet missile AND the Maridia lab missile/super AND the Crateria super missile AND the Crateria missiles off the Old Tourian shaft AND the reserve tank near the Gravity suit. Though to be honest I don't remember how many of those actually have speedblocks in the way as opposed to just really long shafts that could be bomb/wall/spacejumped. And perhaps space jump + blue suit = break those blocks. If the reserve tank has speed blocks in the way then that would have to be backtracked to following the Draygon fight. And I'm not sure that blue suit can be gotten without taking damage since it requires a super jump -- can anyone confirm?

Regarding getting blue suit, the means of getting a similar constantly-charging state is also via Draygon and requires using the Crystal Flash -- which requires being low on health, ergo, taking damage. I have to reread what Kejardon said about getting a very impractical blue suit in Maridia, but as I recall it involved secret worlds because there was no other way to get to a particular place...however, this was in the context of NBMB, so that condition might not apply. But it sounded like a major pain requiring frame-precision.

I would see the rationale of not counting shinespark damage as follows:

1) required to obtain 100% (otherwise it's necessary to redefine 100% as 92% or whatever), and use can be clearly limited to that purpose -- even by unequipping the Speed Booster at all times but those specified for getting items.

2) the other games with Speed Booster do not drain health in using it

3) it's damage from Samus internally rather than from enemies or the environment. That is, it could be justified in a no-hit run even if not a no-damage one.

On the other hand, of course, are the objections already posted. And to clarify, I have no problem with not skipping Spore Spawn, it was just an observation. Other timesavers would have to be omitted too, such as sparking to the ship, the walking Chozo statue, and the missile near the Grapple, leaving after getting the other missile near the Grapple, crossing that big room in Maridia with all the grapple blocks at the top...oh, and the escape shinesparks at the end, too. I'm sure none of these are a big deal to get around, just sayin'.

It seems unlikely to me that blue suit could be used for the Maridia mainstreet missile AND the Maridia lab missile/super AND the Crateria super missile AND the Crateria missiles off the Old Tourian shaft AND the reserve tank near the Gravity suit.  Though to be honest I don't remember how many of those actually have speedblocks in the way as opposed to just really long shafts that could be bomb/wall/spacejumped.  And perhaps space jump + blue suit = break those blocks.  If the reserve tank has speed blocks in the way then that would have to be backtracked to following the Draygon fight.  And I'm not sure that blue suit can be gotten without taking damage since it requires a super jump -- can anyone confirm?

Regarding getting blue suit, the means of getting a similar constantly-charging state is also via Draygon and requires using the Crystal Flash -- which requires being low on health, ergo, taking damage.  I have to reread what Kejardon said about getting a very impractical blue suit in Maridia, but as I recall it involved secret worlds because there was no other way to get to a particular place...however, this was in the context of NBMB, so that condition might not apply.  But it sounded like a major pain requiring frame-precision.

I would see the rationale of not counting shinespark damage as follows:

1) required to obtain 100% (otherwise it's necessary to redefine 100% as 92% or whatever), and use can be clearly limited to that purpose -- even by unequipping the Speed Booster at all times but those specified for getting items.

2) the other games with Speed Booster do not drain health in using it

3) it's damage from Samus internally rather than from enemies or the environment.  That is, it could be justified in a no-[i]hit[/i] run even if not a no-[i]damage[/i] one.

On the other hand, of course, are the objections already posted.  And to clarify, I have no problem with not skipping Spore Spawn, it was just an observation.  Other timesavers would have to be omitted too, such as sparking to the ship, the walking Chozo statue, and the missile near the Grapple, leaving after getting the other missile near the Grapple, crossing that big room in Maridia with all the grapple blocks at the top...oh, and the escape shinesparks at the end, too.  I'm sure none of these are a big deal to get around, just sayin'.

Kejardon:

registered on 2004-12-07 07:21:36 pm.

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Kejardon

2006-02-09 07:16:29 pm

Embarrasing Fact: Power suit made by lowest bidder

The Maridia mainstreet missile can be gotten a few ways with temporary blue suit. It'd be tedious and somewhat slow, but not too bad with ice beam, high jump, and gravity. Only requires out of room travel without gravity and grapple.

The missile/super missile part in Maridia can be gotten by jumping onto a yard, using the frozen mochtroid glitch to jump through the roof, then using similar positioning to jump through the next two walls. Requires gravity suit, but even if you don't have the high jump boots it can be done, just requires perfect positioning with the yard.

Tourian shaft... nothing comes to mind for that one, short of OOR travel to try and get past that grey door, or x-ray force standing all the way up from the bottom door to the top door. I doubt there's a good, quick method to reach the door from outside the room though, if it's even possible.

Short of a bizarre glitch randomly setting the exact value needed ala space/time, the only way to get a permanent blue suit has to be through a super jump - I checked that in the code of the game. I'm not sure how far you can take a temporary blue suit, though - it might be possible to space jump around with it, but I don't see how one might accomplish that.
As for doing a super jump and not taking damage, it might be possible with a single frame super jump... it depends on how Draygon registers a hit from Samus's super jump, I don't know how that works at the moment. But I doubt it would work.

The temporary blue suit isn't too bad to control. It's like doing a mockball everytime you move - with a day of practice at most, someone could probably master it and almost never mess it up again.

I'm pretty sure you can nab everything without super jumps or damage. It might not be flashy or quick, but it's possible. Still, if no good alternatives come up for the Tourian shaft super missile, it'd probably be best to just allow that one super jump to the super missile.

The Maridia mainstreet missile can be gotten a few ways with temporary blue suit. It'd be tedious and somewhat slow, but not too bad with ice beam, high jump, and gravity. Only requires out of room travel without gravity and grapple.

The missile/super missile part in Maridia can be gotten by jumping onto a yard, using the frozen mochtroid glitch to jump through the roof, then using similar positioning to jump through the next two walls. Requires gravity suit, but even if you don't have the high jump boots it can be done, just requires perfect positioning with the yard.

Tourian shaft... nothing comes to mind for that one, short of OOR travel to try and get past that grey door, or x-ray force standing all the way up from the bottom door to the top door. I doubt there's a good, quick method to reach the door from outside the room though, if it's even possible.

Short of a bizarre glitch randomly setting the exact value needed ala space/time, the only way to get a permanent blue suit has to be through a super jump - I checked that in the code of the game. I'm not sure how far you can take a temporary blue suit, though - it might be possible to space jump around with it, but I don't see how one might accomplish that.
As for doing a super jump and not taking damage, it might be possible with a single frame super jump... it depends on how Draygon registers a hit from Samus's super jump, I don't know how that works at the moment. But I doubt it would work.

The temporary blue suit isn't too bad to control. It's like doing a mockball everytime you move - with a day of practice at most, someone could probably master it and almost never mess it up again.

I'm pretty sure you can nab everything without super jumps or damage. It might not be flashy or quick, but it's possible. Still, if no good alternatives come up for the Tourian shaft super missile, it'd probably be best to just allow that one super jump to the super missile.

Qlex:

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Qlex

2006-02-10 04:09:28 am

Quote from Arkarian:

No, that would be silly, as the player is not taking any damage.

Yeah right -_-, but as a hit maybe?

Quote from Chanoire:

And I'm not sure that blue suit can be gotten without taking damage since it requires a super jump -- can anyone confirm?

Quote from Kejardon:

As for doing a super jump and not taking damage, it might be possible with a single frame super jump... it depends on how Draygon registers a hit from Samus's super jump, I don't know how that works at the moment. But I doubt it would work.

Well I think you really have to take damage when super jumping/shinesparking. Sometimes I was doing a shinespark against a wall, I couldn't be nearer, but took 1 damage...
About the tourian shaft, I think it must be the only one to be shinesparked, but it must be ... as short as you can do, since you can gain time by shinesparking. I wonder if you can make the shinespark against the speedblocks, by walljumping crazy.