Nate. please come fast!!

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Azor

2006-07-26 10:16:21 pm

Phazon level: 83%

my back is vey sweaty but my smile travels accross the block, i finally got a recorded 37 single segmented!!!

im so happy about it but i need you to tell me where exactly i need to send the video

Thread title:

nate:

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registered on 2003-09-15 06:16:34 pm.

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nate

2006-07-26 10:59:05 pm

君だけの

光になると

lol, you know this forum has private message functions, right? :P

i've pm'd you my address. send away! and be sure to pack the tape well so it isn't damaged before it gets to me! and don't forget to tell me where on the tape (time counting from the start) the run is located!

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Azor

2006-07-26 11:36:12 pm

Phazon level: 83%

i forgot Pms, sorry

about the time, its a good idea, i was gonna tape an episode of that 70s show after my run so you would notice it

anyway im gonna search the time, from what i saw on the tape its almost on the end

griggski:

registered on 2005-02-26 01:16:36 pm.

Location: South Carolina

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griggski

2006-07-27 04:51:45 pm

Congratulations, Azor! That is a serious accomplishment. I'll definitely check out that run once it's available.

Azor:

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Azor

2006-07-27 07:05:01 pm

Phazon level: 83%

thanks, it was funny on the ridley jump before high jump i failed and said to myself"damn, at least this will be practice" but i kept the run and got 37, i was dancing like crazy for about 20 minutes

Chanoire:

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Chanoire

2006-07-27 08:09:50 pm

Quote from Azor:

thanks, it was funny on the ridley jump before high jump i failed

? Do you mean the walljump to Kraid's lair?

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.

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Saturn

2006-07-27 09:35:35 pm

Congratulations Azor, awesome Job! I look very much forward to finally see this run! It's just amazing, thank you alot for doing it and not giving up. :)

arkarian:

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arkarian

2006-07-27 10:25:23 pm

mindfulness

fully erect

Yeah, man, this looks like it could be really awesome. Can't wait to finally see it after all this time!

P.JMan:

registered on 2005-11-30 10:52:21 am.

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P.JMan

2006-07-28 02:16:09 am

I like Big Butts and I can not lie

:o :more shock:

Well done, and are we gonna get a new announcement topic like usual

I'd also like to see you dance as well

arkarian:

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arkarian

2006-07-28 10:56:27 am

mindfulness

fully erect

I'm sure we will, once the run is available on SDA.

Roxinos:

registered on 2004-12-27 03:39:19 pm.

Location: Miami, FL

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Roxinos

2006-07-28 12:23:19 pm

I also must put forth my congratulations.

CONGRATS!

See, I can't even complete a pure speed run, much less break the record.

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Azor

2006-07-30 12:01:44 am

Phazon level: 83%

lol yeah i meant the kraid's lair jump and thank you all guys =)

im not sure if you'll see me dance but you'll see me randomly mashing L and R on waiting sequences, you'll also see my signature coreography when waiting for the statues to blow up

and i have a question, was i allowed to use murder beam??

i saw smokeys and thought it would be better to not use it, that way my record wont depend on a glitch but it could have saved some time

nate:

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nate

2006-07-30 12:04:39 am

君だけの

光になると

it's allowed, yes.

Azor:

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Azor

2006-07-30 12:28:34 am

Phazon level: 83%

lol, i should have known it

nate:

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nate

2006-07-30 03:59:53 am

君だけの

光になると

yes.

Greeken:

registered on 2005-09-12 10:13:36 am.

Location: Stockholm/Sweden

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Greeken

2006-07-30 07:31:01 am

if im not misstaken theres two ending for the Multi segment record on SDA, one with and one without the murderbeam

moozooh:

registered on 2006-01-11 12:51:46 pm.

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moozooh

2006-07-30 09:06:31 am

Quote from Azor:

i saw smokeys and thought it would be better to not use it, that way my record wont depend on a glitch but it could have saved some time

So you didn't use it after all?
Phew, what a relief. Murder beam does save a nice amount of time but it looks so ugly. :(

Looking forward to watch your run, you seem to have made a good job there. Also, can we expect multi-segment sub-36 run from you in the near future? :D

Azor:

registered on 2006-06-08 07:48:44 pm.

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Azor

2006-07-30 11:49:22 am

Phazon level: 83%

uhmm i havent thought of it, i prefer single-segments because of the pure feeling of the perfection, the fact to stay perfect when the run is advanced or else you'll fail, the fact you go through all the game in a continous run

however i might give a multi segment-run a try and if it works i may record it

Saturn:

registered on 2005-09-01 03:34:43 pm.

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Saturn

2006-07-30 06:53:12 pm

I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots. A good console player should get away with around 10 sec delay if not using murder beam.

I'm glad you didn't use it as it's even more surprising to get this SS time that way.

With the performance you did so far I'm also sure you have enough skill to beat the multi segmented record as well. :)

Azor:

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Azor

2006-07-30 07:41:42 pm

Phazon level: 83%

uhmmm.. i havent thought of it but if tied smokey's no murder beam run in single segment perhaps i could have a chance of doing multisegment

moozooh:

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moozooh

2006-07-30 11:44:48 pm

Quote from Saturn:

I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots.

On both Ridley and MB? I think it could help much more on Ridley, cause unlike MB, it's very difficult even to approach optimal time. For the record:
- Terimakasih in the any% TAS kills Ridley in ~18 seconds with 14 s-missiles upon entering the room, with no murder beam;
- Red Scarlet in her 100% run does that in ~32 seconds with 25 s-missiles AND murder beam;
- Smokey in the SS any% does that in ~50 seconds with 13 s-missiles and no murder beam (BTW, even faster than in his MS any%).

While MB fight always look similar in both tool-assisted and normal runs ("stand in the corner, shoot diagonally, jump if needed"), Ridley fight is much more random and heavily dependant on player's skill. While the absolute minimum we've seen yet is ~14 seconds in JXQ's TAS, the theoretical minimum could possibly lie somewhere around 33-40 seconds for a SS any%, so murder beam may help to shave another 10, maybe 12-13 seconds from a usual SS fight.

Saturn, could you look up the memory addresses to determine the exact rate at which the murder beam damages Ridley (and how much does shooting him help while the beam is active), and how much damage does the charge/wave combo do to him (would it save some time to use it as the first strike at the moment he becomes vulnerable)?
Based on the results of your research, we could develop a solid strat that should help kill Ridley in under 40 seconds in a SS any%. I don't know how much time did Azor spend on him in his current run, but I'm sure that 35-40 seconds is humanly possible (and with the help of murder beam, probably not dependant on luck at all, which is crucial in SS runs).

And I'm also sure that :36 SS run is possible for a player of Azor's skill level with the help of some thorough strategic planning. Beating Smokey's time in MS is not a problem since you already have the skill, and there is a lot of known ways to improve his run to :35, and maybe even to :34 with the help of luck manipulation.

[quote="Saturn"]I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots.[/quote]
On both Ridley and MB? I think it could help much more on Ridley, cause unlike MB, it's very difficult even to approach optimal time. For the record:
- Terimakasih in the any% TAS kills Ridley in ~18 seconds with 14 s-missiles upon entering the room, with no murder beam;
- Red Scarlet in her 100% run does that in ~32 seconds with 25 s-missiles AND murder beam;
- Smokey in the SS any% does that in ~50 seconds with 13 s-missiles and no murder beam (BTW, even faster than in his MS any%).

While MB fight always look similar in both tool-assisted and normal runs ("stand in the corner, shoot diagonally, jump if needed"), Ridley fight is much more random and heavily dependant on player's skill. While the absolute minimum we've seen yet is ~14 seconds in JXQ's TAS, the theoretical minimum could possibly lie somewhere around 33-40 seconds for a SS any%, so murder beam may help to shave another 10, maybe 12-13 seconds from a usual SS fight.

Saturn, could you look up the memory addresses to determine the exact rate at which the murder beam damages Ridley (and how much does shooting him help while the beam is active), and how much damage does the charge/wave combo do to him (would it save some time to use it as the first strike at the moment he becomes vulnerable)?
Based on the results of your research, we could develop a solid strat that should help kill Ridley in under 40 seconds in a SS any%. I don't know how much time did Azor spend on him in his current run, but I'm sure that 35-40 seconds is humanly possible (and with the help of murder beam, probably not dependant on luck at all, which is crucial in SS runs).

And I'm also sure that :36 SS run is possible for a player of Azor's skill level with the help of some thorough strategic planning. Beating Smokey's time in MS is not a problem since you already have the skill, and there is a lot of known ways to improve his run to :35, and maybe even to :34 with the help of luck manipulation.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

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BlueGlass

2006-07-30 11:57:25 pm

First of all, congradulations on your run, Azor. Can't wait to see it.

Quote from Saturn:

I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots. A good console player should get away with around 10 sec delay if not using murder beam.

You're ignoring the part where it cuts out the entire final third of the fight. Charge beam can be fired once every 90 frames and hits for 900 damage. MB has 18000 health, and so takes 20 shots (900 x 20 = 18000) So killing her with charge beam takes 30 seconds exactly. Murder beam hits once every 17 frames and causes 200 damage per hit, killing MB in 25.5 seconds. So Murder Beam is 4.5 seconds faster than fighting perfectly with the Charge Beam for phase II of the fight.

I'm pretty sure I remember discovering through some complicated method that phase III starts when the hatchling detaches itself from MB, and phase III has 36000 health, so the murder beam takes 51 seconds to kill phase three, but the hatchling-healing-Samus-and-dying-and-Samus-getting-the-hyper-beam-and-standing-up cutscene takes approximately 50 seconds, making the actual fighting time of phase III about 1 second. So unless slowdown also slows down the timer, which I am 99.9% sure it does not, we can safely say that the Murder Beam saves well over 5 seconds.

EDIT: @Moozooh Not positive on this, but I THINK Ridley has the same inveunerability time as MB. And Murder Beam still damages at a rate of 200 damage/hit. But you have to remember that as long as Ridley is in the Murder Beam's range (you'll probably have to ask Kejardon exactly what that is, because it seems kinda wacky, especially during the Ridley fight) he can only be hit by other weapons on his one vulnerable frame - for human purposes invincible to all but Murder Beam (haven't tested this, but if you watch RS's 100% 0:55 closely enough, you can see her shots going through Ridley). Ridley has 18000 health. Super Missiles cause him 600 damage/hit, so it's best to use those up before activating the Murder Beam. If a human can hit him with all four shots of the wave beam power bomb shield, it will cause 1200 damage, but I'd imagine the tming is almost frame perfect. A human in a SS run is probably better off firing whatever SMs he/she has. Also, you must take into account that the Murder Beam might not be hitting him the whole fight like it does Mother Brain. Plus, I don't think Ridley can pick you up while he's getting hit, so the runner would have to wait for his auto-death (like Scarlet does), and that can sometimes take a LONG time to happen.

I would like to thank Kejardon for a large amount of the technical info in this post.

First of all, congradulations on your run,  Azor.  Can't wait to see it.

[quote="Saturn"]I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots. A good console player should get away with around 10 sec delay if not using murder beam.[/quote]
You're ignoring the part where it cuts out the entire final third of the fight.  Charge beam can be fired once every 90 frames and hits for 900 damage.  MB has 18000 health, and so takes 20 shots (900 x 20 = 18000) So killing her with charge beam takes 30 seconds exactly.  Murder beam hits once every 17 frames and causes 200 damage per hit, killing MB in 25.5 seconds.  So Murder Beam is 4.5 seconds faster than fighting perfectly with the Charge Beam for phase II of the fight.

I'm pretty sure I remember discovering through some complicated method that phase III starts when the hatchling detaches itself from MB, and phase III has 36000 health, so the murder beam takes 51 seconds to kill phase three, but the hatchling-healing-Samus-and-dying-and-Samus-getting-the-hyper-beam-and-standing-up cutscene takes approximately 50 seconds, making the actual fighting time of phase III about 1 second.  So unless slowdown also slows down the timer, which I am 99.9% sure it does not, we can safely say that the Murder Beam saves well over 5 seconds.

EDIT: @Moozooh  Not positive on this, but I THINK Ridley has the same inveunerability time as MB.  And Murder Beam still damages at a rate of 200 damage/hit.  But you have to remember that as long as Ridley is in the Murder Beam's range (you'll probably have to ask Kejardon exactly what that is, because it seems kinda wacky, especially during the Ridley fight) he can only be hit by other weapons on his one vulnerable frame - for human purposes invincible to all but Murder Beam (haven't tested this, but if you watch RS's 100% 0:55 closely enough, you can see her shots going through Ridley).  Ridley has 18000 health.  Super Missiles cause him 600 damage/hit, so it's best to use those up before activating the Murder Beam.  If a human can hit him with all four shots of the wave beam power bomb shield, it will cause 1200 damage, but I'd imagine the tming is almost frame perfect.  A human in a SS run is probably better off firing whatever SMs he/she has.  Also, you must take into account that the Murder Beam might not be hitting him the whole fight like it does Mother Brain.  Plus, I don't think Ridley can pick you up while he's getting hit, so the runner would have to wait for his auto-death (like Scarlet does), and that can sometimes take a LONG time to happen.

I would like to thank Kejardon for a large amount of the technical info in this post.

moozooh:

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moozooh

2006-07-31 01:28:30 am

Quote from BlueGlass:

But you have to remember that as long as Ridley is in the Murder Beam's range (you'll probably have to ask Kejardon exactly what that is, because it seems kinda wacky, especially during the Ridley fight) he can only be hit by other weapons on his one vulnerable frame - for human purposes invincible to all but Murder Beam (haven't tested this, but if you watch RS's 100% 0:55 closely enough, you can see her shots going through Ridley).

Yes, this is a subject to research as well, although all the super missile hits Scarlet landed on him haven't went through. Did that mean they damaged him? Probably yes, because I couldn't manage to match her time without shooting at him.

Quote from BlueGlass:

Ridley has 18000 health. Super Missiles cause him 600 damage/hit, so it's best to use those up before activating the Murder Beam.

Not really sure if that would end up significantly faster. And I'm now also 100% positive that Ridley fight could be done in sub-40 in a SS using murder beam. I did a quick test and it took Ridley precisely 37 (!) seconds (realtime) from the start of the fight to pick me up and die, and all I did was rolling on the floor and evaiding his tail! I would expect that due to randomness, the actual time may be in the range of 36-39 seconds, but this still is a great result.
That does also mean that a player with proper reflexes can save some time not taking one additional e-tank (either this one or the one before Draygon) or additional health refills, cause they won't lose more than ~120 HP dodging Ridley's attacks.

Quote from BlueGlass:

Plus, I don't think Ridley can pick you up while he's getting hit, so the runner would have to wait for his auto-death (like Scarlet does), and that can sometimes take a LONG time to happen.

Although the pickup is still kinda random, it is possible while Ridley is being hit by murder beam (on the other hand, I think he is no longer being hit after he runs out of HP).

[quote="BlueGlass"]But you have to remember that as long as Ridley is in the Murder Beam's range (you'll probably have to ask Kejardon exactly what that is, because it seems kinda wacky, especially during the Ridley fight) he can only be hit by other weapons on his one vulnerable frame - for human purposes invincible to all but Murder Beam (haven't tested this, but if you watch RS's 100% 0:55 closely enough, you can see her shots going through Ridley).[/quote]
Yes, this is a subject to research as well, although all the super missile hits Scarlet landed on him haven't went through. Did that mean they damaged him? Probably yes, because I couldn't manage to match her time without shooting at him.

[quote="BlueGlass"]Ridley has 18000 health.  Super Missiles cause him 600 damage/hit, so it's best to use those up before activating the Murder Beam.[/quote]
Not really sure if that would end up significantly faster. And I'm now also 100% positive that Ridley fight could be done in sub-40 in a SS using murder beam. I did a quick test and it took Ridley precisely 37 (!) seconds (realtime) from the start of the fight to pick me up and die, and all I did was rolling on the floor and evaiding his tail! I would expect that due to randomness, the actual time may be in the range of 36-39 seconds, but this still is a great result.
That does also mean that a player with proper reflexes can save some time not taking one additional e-tank (either this one or the one before Draygon) or additional health refills, cause they won't lose more than ~120 HP dodging Ridley's attacks.

[quote="BlueGlass"]Plus, I don't think Ridley can pick you up while he's getting hit, so the runner would have to wait for his auto-death (like Scarlet does), and that can sometimes take a LONG time to happen.[/quote]
Although the pickup is still kinda random, it is possible while Ridley is being hit by murder beam (on the other hand, I think he is no longer [i]being hit[/i] after he runs out of HP).

Saturn:

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Saturn

2006-07-31 12:10:52 pm

Quote from moozooh:

Quote from Saturn:

I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots.

On both Ridley and MB?

I tested this on MB only.

Quote from moozooh:

Saturn, could you look up the memory addresses to determine the exact rate at which the murder beam damages Ridley (and how much does shooting him help while the beam is active), and how much damage does the charge/wave combo do to him (would it save some time to use it as the first strike at the moment he becomes vulnerable)?

I confirm BlueGlass statement about the murder beam hit rate: 200 HP damage every 17 frames. I just tested using murder beam on Ridley and unlike Mother Brain the murder beam doesn't always hit Ridley, only if he is in the "range" of it. Scarlet damaged him with Plasma/Supers only in the time Ridley was out of reach of the murder beam. Otherwise as BlueGlass said the shots go through Ridley which means they didn't damage him at all.

As far as I know, it's completely impossible to additionaly hit anything with a charged shot/Missile at all if the enemie is under the murder beam attack. Although Kejardon said it's still possible on very specific moments I still couldn't do it myself (tried on Mother Brain many times at different frames and positions).

And yes, charged Wave combo does instant 1200 HP damage and I think it could possibly save 20 frames (one Super Missile cool down) in a 100% TAS if using at the very beginning of the fight and then continue to spam him with 28 Supers till the end.

Quote from BlueGlass:

You're ignoring the part where it cuts out the entire final third of the fight. Charge beam can be fired once every 90 frames and hits for 900 damage. MB has 18000 health, and so takes 20 shots (900 x 20 = 18000) So killing her with charge beam takes 30 seconds exactly. Murder beam hits once every 17 frames and causes 200 damage per hit, killing MB in 25.5 seconds. So Murder Beam is 4.5 seconds faster than fighting perfectly with the Charge Beam for phase II of the fight.

Wrong. A optimal charged beam can be shot exactly after every 61 frames. You require 19 shots to kill Mother with Plasma (1st shot doesn't count as it can be fired earlier and hit instantly after MB is vulnerable) so 19*61 = 1159 frames or ~ 19,2 sec. So if not using murder beam you even save almost 6 sec on Phase 2. :)

Though as you mentioned you lose much time in Phase 3 as the murder beam damage already starts after the Metroid detaching MB's head. Due to my calculations you lose around 10 sec on Phase 3 so in total murder beam is even just 4 sec faster on Mother.

As for murder beam on Ridley, it's a great idea to use it on a console run. You simply fire charged Plasma shots during the fight (or start with Supers like Scarlet did while Ridley being in a good shot position) so you will either hit him with charged shots or simply with the murder beam. This should speed up the fight on a console run for some sec as moozooh said. However in a TAS it's still faster to not use it and instead use optimal Supers and charged shots all the time.

Oh and I tested Ridleys KO Grab, it works even under the constant murder beam attack for me.

[quote="moozooh"][quote="Saturn"]I thoroughly compared the murder beam duration and it actually saves only 5 sec in-game time compared to optimal Plasma Charges/Hyper shots.[/quote]

On both Ridley and MB?[/quote]
I tested this on MB only.

[quote="moozooh"]Saturn, could you look up the memory addresses to determine the exact rate at which the murder beam damages Ridley (and how much does shooting him help while the beam is active), and how much damage does the charge/wave combo do to him (would it save some time to use it as the first strike at the moment he becomes vulnerable)?[/quote]
I confirm BlueGlass statement about the murder beam hit rate: 200 HP damage every 17 frames. I just tested using murder beam on Ridley and unlike Mother Brain the murder beam doesn't always hit Ridley, only if he is in the "range" of it. Scarlet damaged him with Plasma/Supers only in the time Ridley was out of reach of the murder beam. Otherwise as BlueGlass said the shots go through Ridley which means they didn't damage him at all.

As far as I know, it's completely impossible to additionaly hit anything with a charged shot/Missile at all if the enemie is under the murder beam attack. Although Kejardon said it's still possible on very specific moments I still couldn't do it myself (tried on Mother Brain many times at different frames and positions).

And yes, charged Wave combo does instant 1200 HP damage and I think it could possibly save 20 frames (one Super Missile cool down) in a 100% TAS if using at the very beginning of the fight and then continue to spam him with 28 Supers till the end.

[quote="BlueGlass"]You're ignoring the part where it cuts out the entire final third of the fight. Charge beam can be fired once every 90 frames and hits for 900 damage. MB has 18000 health, and so takes 20 shots (900 x 20 = 18000) So killing her with charge beam takes 30 seconds exactly. Murder beam hits once every 17 frames and causes 200 damage per hit, killing MB in 25.5 seconds. So Murder Beam is 4.5 seconds faster than fighting perfectly with the Charge Beam for phase II of the fight.[/quote]
Wrong. A optimal charged beam can be shot exactly after every 61 frames. You require 19 shots to kill Mother with Plasma (1st shot doesn't count as it can be fired earlier and hit instantly after MB is vulnerable) so 19*61 = 1159 frames or ~ 19,2 sec. So if not using murder beam you even save almost 6 sec on Phase 2. :)

Though as you mentioned you lose much time in Phase 3 as the murder beam damage already starts after the Metroid detaching MB's head. Due to my calculations you lose around 10 sec on Phase 3 so in total murder beam is even just 4 sec faster on Mother.

As for murder beam on Ridley, it's a great idea to use it on a console run. You simply fire charged Plasma shots during the fight (or start with Supers like Scarlet did while Ridley being in a good shot position) so you will either hit him with charged shots or simply with the murder beam. This should speed up the fight on a console run for some sec as moozooh said. However in a TAS it's still faster to not use it and instead use optimal Supers and charged shots all the time.

Oh and I tested Ridleys KO Grab, it works even under the constant murder beam attack for me.

Chanoire:

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Chanoire

2006-07-31 12:26:58 pm

Didn't Terimikasih or Jecy (I don't remember who did what) use Murder Beam on the Golden Torizo? Might be worth taking a look at to see if there's anything to be learned from that.