Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!
Yeah, I know, but I was referring more generally to all those foreigners that have been beheaded in the past few years.
No, God, somebody hold me down. I must not post in this thread.
Metroid 2002 Forum
Acheron:
is in the group Hacks and Fan Games Moderator.
registered on 2008-02-10 02:26:03 pm.
Gender: male
Location: Florida
Acclaimed Threshold
Constant Sorrows
Lot of stuff here, too much to respond to without writing an essay and I don't have the time right now.
I'll just comment on this.
I have no interest in helping people who think it's OK to beat or kill their wives, sorry.
I've been to third world countries. I've been to Asia and Africa. Let me tell you something: that's not how it works. There's not this cultural rule of "we should all beat our wives." What there IS, is an ideology both religious and cultural that puts men above women, and a minority of the men raised with the idea that they are better than their women abuse that power. Most people anywhere you go want to have normal lives with a loving spouse and happy kids. They would never even think of beating their loved one, because that is not love. The only reason they don't have the laws and rules against those things that we do is because change takes a long, long time. Western culture has been evolving and changing for centuries while these guys are just beginning to have those revolutionary experiences. They are hundreds of years behind our culture; you would have them all bombed, women and children as well, just because they took longer to learn things than we did?
I postulate that you cannot understand it because:
-you haven't traveled enough to see just how a different culture can affect perfectly decent people
-you are a woman, and thus cannot put yourself properly in the shoes of a man in this situation
Don't have time to elaborate on either of these, unfortunately. For the record, I'm not saying a woman is incapable of understanding, but the fact that you're taking such a dogmatic position on the subject indicates to me that you don't appreciate how prevalent sexism is (and how difficult it is to overcome even growing up in the midst of a politically-correct, pro-feminist culture). A lot of women want to simply lambast us guys because we do not see things precisely as they do; there is never any respect or attempt to understand why sexism is something we are so naturally inclined towards, or how hard it is to overcome. And every time a woman says "I don't care, this is just the way it is, so you should see it this way or gtfo," all they do is add to the distance between the two groups, as opposed to actually encouraging understanding or respect.
No, God, somebody hold me down. I must not post in this thread.
I triple-dog-dare-you...? Oh well.
I'll just comment on this.
Quote from Opium:
I have no interest in helping people who think it's OK to beat or kill their wives, sorry.
I've been to third world countries. I've been to Asia and Africa. Let me tell you something: that's not how it works. There's not this cultural rule of "we should all beat our wives." What there IS, is an ideology both religious and cultural that puts men above women, and a minority of the men raised with the idea that they are better than their women abuse that power. Most people anywhere you go want to have normal lives with a loving spouse and happy kids. They would never even think of beating their loved one, because that is not love. The only reason they don't have the laws and rules against those things that we do is because change takes a long, long time. Western culture has been evolving and changing for centuries while these guys are just beginning to have those revolutionary experiences. They are hundreds of years behind our culture; you would have them all bombed, women and children as well, just because they took longer to learn things than we did?
I postulate that you cannot understand it because:
-you haven't traveled enough to see just how a different culture can affect perfectly decent people
-you are a woman, and thus cannot put yourself properly in the shoes of a man in this situation
Don't have time to elaborate on either of these, unfortunately. For the record, I'm not saying a woman is incapable of understanding, but the fact that you're taking such a dogmatic position on the subject indicates to me that you don't appreciate how prevalent sexism is (and how difficult it is to overcome even growing up in the midst of a politically-correct, pro-feminist culture). A lot of women want to simply lambast us guys because we do not see things precisely as they do; there is never any respect or attempt to understand why sexism is something we are so naturally inclined towards, or how hard it is to overcome. And every time a woman says "I don't care, this is just the way it is, so you should see it this way or gtfo," all they do is add to the distance between the two groups, as opposed to actually encouraging understanding or respect.
Quote from DJGrenola:
No, God, somebody hold me down. I must not post in this thread.
I triple-dog-dare-you...? Oh well.
Sharon Needles
Quote from Acheron86:
I'll just comment on this.
Quote from Opium:
I have no interest in helping people who think it's OK to beat or kill their wives, sorry.
I've been to third world countries. I've been to Asia and Africa. Let me tell you something: that's not how it works. There's not this cultural rule of "we should all beat our wives."
Not sure why you have quotes around that last part because I certainly didn't say it. I don't believe they are all running around saying that they should all beat their wives. They do however go around believing that there are circumstances which make it OK to beat or even kill your wife, and I will never accept or understand that.
Quote from Acheron86:
What there IS, is an ideology both religious and cultural that puts men above women, and a minority of the men raised with the idea that they are better than their women abuse that power.
But to them beating or killing their wives under the 'right' circumstances is not an abuse of power, it is a god-given right.
Quote from Acheron86:
Most people anywhere you go want to have normal lives with a loving spouse and happy kids. They would never even think of beating their loved one, because that is not love. The only reason they don't have the laws and rules against those things that we do is because change takes a long, long time. Western culture has been evolving and changing for centuries while these guys are just beginning to have those revolutionary experiences. They are hundreds of years behind our culture; you would have them all bombed, women and children as well, just because they took longer to learn things than we did?
You have offered an explanation for why they are that way, but it is not an excuse because there IS NO EXCUSE for such bullshit. Yes change takes a long long time but during that long long time they are committing unspeakable violations of human rights and threatening the existence of all non-muslim societies around the world. They are not some benign group that's behind the times, they are a threat. Plus I don't have any sympathy for their change taking a long time because it's the fucking cradle of civilization - they've had more time to figure this shit out than any of us !!! They aren't ignorant of the concepts that enable western civilization to live freely, they consciously reject those ideas to the point of believing them to be evil!
And if I had the nuclear codes, I would not send bombs flying out there to blow all those people up. I recant the statement that I think they should all be nuked. It's so harsh that everyone focuses on the wrongness of that idea. I have to say that if someone did nuke them I don't think I would shed a tear. They'll probably nuke each other. Hell, they'll probably nuke the USA/Israel/Britain first knowing damn well it would mean their doom. That way we can all nuke them and then they can meet allah who will bless them with eternal happiness in the afterlife for their good deeds. Then we can sit around wondering why the fuck we had to wait until they killed millions before we really did something. Instead we sat around waiting for them to change.
Quote from Acheron86:
I postulate that you cannot understand it because:
-you haven't traveled enough to see just how a different culture can affect perfectly decent people
-you are a woman, and thus cannot put yourself properly in the shoes of a man in this situation
Don't have time to elaborate on either of these, unfortunately. For the record, I'm not saying a woman is incapable of understanding, but the fact that you're taking such a dogmatic position on the subject indicates to me that you don't appreciate how prevalent sexism is (and how difficult it is to overcome even growing up in the midst of a politically-correct, pro-feminist culture). A lot of women want to simply lambast us guys because we do not see things precisely as they do; there is never any respect or attempt to understand why sexism is something we are so naturally inclined towards, or how hard it is to overcome. And every time a woman says "I don't care, this is just the way it is, so you should see it this way or gtfo," all they do is add to the distance between the two groups, as opposed to actually encouraging understanding or respect.
The human rights violations against women are just the tip of the iceberg though. The fact that I am female may have something to do with why I pointed that particular problem out before the others, but even if they treated women like queens there's many other horrific and unjust ideologies to hate them for. I don't hate them for being sexist, sexism exists everywhere. It's to the extent that their ideologies go - beating/stoning women to death is sometimes OK - that's BEYOND sexism. I suppose if a gay person pointed out how many hundreds of gays have been executed in Iraq in the last year since the new Iraqi govt. has begun to assume power you would point out that they were sensitive to that issue because they were gay. These aren't petty differences we're talking about here. It's not like we cut our meat differently, these differences go against the very fundamental core of what the free world is about.
BioSpark:
is in the group Global Moderator.
registered on 2005-08-07 09:14:49 pm.
Gender: male
Location: urbana, il, usa
hʌŋ laɪk
É™ hÉ”Ërs
you keep trying to enforce that fact that it's ok for them to do things like beat their wives. however, like acheron pointed out, not everyone is doing that. the people who are doing that are a minority. the majority of the people are not twisted abominations like you seem to be describing.
Sharon Needles
Quote from BioSpark:
you keep trying to enforce that fact that it's ok for them to do things like beat their wives. however, like acheron pointed out, not everyone is doing that. the people who are doing that are a minority. the majority of the people are not twisted abominations like you seem to be describing.
They still are OK with living in society where it is OK to do those things, regardless of whether or not they themselves have actually done it or would do it.
Hell, there are thousands of men murdering their wives right here in the USA. I don;t hate the USA though because of it. Our society rejects the idea that it is ever OK, and would never allow it to be OK.
Sharon Needles
Quote from BioSpark:
dunno how you would know that. have you actually gone over there and asked them what they think about beating wives?
If they aren't OK with it then why is it so? They ACCEPT that it goes on there.
EDIT: I apologize for basically hijacking this thread which is supposed to be about the protest in Iran. I never wanted to convince someone to change their mind and think the way I do, it really kinda muffed up my ego when people thought I was hateful for the sake of being hateful and I wanted to defend/explain why I feel so strongly about such things. It's a conversation worth having, but I think I've said what I wanted to say and am going to leave it at that. Thanks for the input, sorry once again.
ryu:
is in the group deutschsprachiger Moderator.
registered on 2004-02-10 05:03:19 pm.
Gender: male
Location: germany
lololololculllololturlolololallololdifflolololerrenclolololeslololololalrelolololadylololmenloltionedlololol
Screw it guys. I've got the perfect idea. Like. Let's just bomb the whole world. There won't be any different people to bomb left then and everything will be fine!!!1
Screw it guys. I've got the perfect idea. Like. Let's just bomb the whole world. There won't be any different people to bomb left then and everything will be fine!!!1
SABERinBLUE:
is in the group Global Moderator.
registered on 2004-03-06 12:11:57 pm.
Location: Waco, TX
Cook of the Sea
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect,
But heaven knows we try.
But all around
even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one
And see what happens.
We give them money,
But are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful, and they're hateful.
They don't respect us, so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.
Asia's crowded, Europe's too old,
Africa is far too hot, and Canada's too cold.
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one,
There'll be no one left to blame us.
We'll save Australia, don't want to hurt no kangaroos.
We'll build an American amusement park there,
They got surfin' too!
Boom! goes London, Boom! Paree
More room for you and more room for me.
And every city the whole world round,
Will just be another American town.
Oh, how peaceful it'll be!
We'll set everybody free!
You'll wear a Japanese kimono, baby
And there'll be Italian shoes for me!
They all hate us anyhow
So let's drop the big one now,
Let's drop the big one now!
InsomniaDMX:
registered on 2008-07-31 07:12:57 am.
Gender: male
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
--Lawrence of Arrakis--
Opium: I had a lot of respect for you before I saw your posts in this thread, and to tell you the truth, you haven't really lost it. I see where you're coming from, though I don't agree that everyone needs to be bombed because of where they live and what culture is practiced there.
Try looking at cultures from an anthropological standpoint: A culture is a constantly evolving set of adaptations to the conditions in which people live. In fact, culture seems to evolve almost exactly like biology; the rules of natural selection and mutation apply.
The standards of a culture halfway on the other side of the world from us Americans are definitely going to be different, because the crucibles in which they were formed are completely different. That being said, it helps to approach the diversity of cultures in the world in a sort of relativistic fashion.
What makes a culture good? Scientists would say something like, "How well the features of the culture contribute to the society's survivability." Believe it or not, things like the religion of Islam and some of its associated cultural precepts do well to optimize life in some societies, but of course, there are some trade-offs. Religious tenets were made to keep people in order and teach that particular culture's brand of morality early in life, which isn't necessarily a bad thing depending on how you look at it.
Many of the cultural devices that people have problems with were not developed to help people fend against nature, but against other people. Religions and philosophies are notorious for this. Gang members, suicide bombers, terrorists... All of these people have very unique and fucked up problems to deal with, and so, if these problems persist for long enough, whole subsets of cultures evolve to better meet their needs. The whole, "Fuck the police!" mentality didn't come from nowhere, police brutality really messed up a lot of people's lives, and the mentality evolved as a consequence. There's a lot of animosity coming from middle easterners toward westerners because westerners fucked them big time, several times over (ie: The crusades, imperialism and corporations like Shell, etc).
Culture evolves consequently to conditions in the world. How often do we think about ALL the possible consequences to decisions we make before we make them? Not often enough imo. Also, how often do leaders do things with full knowledge of consequences that benefit them, but royally screw others? Probably a lot. Either way, culture often evolves without the attention of most of the world, including the people who practice it, so how can they be to blame?
But yeah, different strokes for different folks mirite?
Edit: I wonder if I can write a post that's not a wall of text...
Edit2: I guess I did bump an old thread... Oh well.
Try looking at cultures from an anthropological standpoint: A culture is a constantly evolving set of adaptations to the conditions in which people live. In fact, culture seems to evolve almost exactly like biology; the rules of natural selection and mutation apply.
The standards of a culture halfway on the other side of the world from us Americans are definitely going to be different, because the crucibles in which they were formed are completely different. That being said, it helps to approach the diversity of cultures in the world in a sort of relativistic fashion.
What makes a culture good? Scientists would say something like, "How well the features of the culture contribute to the society's survivability." Believe it or not, things like the religion of Islam and some of its associated cultural precepts do well to optimize life in some societies, but of course, there are some trade-offs. Religious tenets were made to keep people in order and teach that particular culture's brand of morality early in life, which isn't necessarily a bad thing depending on how you look at it.
Many of the cultural devices that people have problems with were not developed to help people fend against nature, but against other people. Religions and philosophies are notorious for this. Gang members, suicide bombers, terrorists... All of these people have very unique and fucked up problems to deal with, and so, if these problems persist for long enough, whole subsets of cultures evolve to better meet their needs. The whole, "Fuck the police!" mentality didn't come from nowhere, police brutality really messed up a lot of people's lives, and the mentality evolved as a consequence. There's a lot of animosity coming from middle easterners toward westerners because westerners fucked them big time, several times over (ie: The crusades, imperialism and corporations like Shell, etc).
Culture evolves consequently to conditions in the world. How often do we think about ALL the possible consequences to decisions we make before we make them? Not often enough imo. Also, how often do leaders do things with full knowledge of consequences that benefit them, but royally screw others? Probably a lot. Either way, culture often evolves without the attention of most of the world, including the people who practice it, so how can they be to blame?
But yeah, different strokes for different folks mirite?
Edit: I wonder if I can write a post that's not a wall of text...
Edit2: I guess I did bump an old thread... Oh well.
Sharon Needles
Quote from InsomniaDMX:
Opium: I had a lot of respect for you before I saw your posts in this thread, and to tell you the truth, you haven't really lost it. I see where you're coming from, though I don't agree that everyone needs to be bombed because of where they live and what culture is practiced there.
Try looking at cultures from an anthropological standpoint: A culture is a constantly evolving set of adaptations to the conditions in which people live. In fact, culture seems to evolve almost exactly like biology; the rules of natural selection and mutation apply.
I understand that had I been born and raised in that culture that I would probably feel that stoning whores who showed their ankles on the sabbath was perfectly OK. All that points out is that I understand those people are not inherently wicked or evil, it's just a different culture (albeit extreme). As an American of the non-redneck variety living in a moderate sized city that is a major asian port, and having traveled extensively throughout europe, I have had my share of exposure to other cultures. I'm no cultural anthropologist who has spent time in the amazon or anything, but I don't mean to give the impression that I'm some back-woods toothless hooch with a shotgun. In my last posts, I retracted the bombing statement and admitted that it was made in haste and poor taste.
I'm just simply unable to understand their culture and/or how a human spirit could possibly be anything close to what it could be while existing within those confines. There are many cultures that have made me feel humbled, amazed, or I even thought them kinda silly, but this one throws me for a loop and I cannot process it in a way where I see it fitting in a world that just might have a chance at being awesome.
I become very angry when I think of it.
InsomniaDMX:
registered on 2008-07-31 07:12:57 am.
Gender: male
Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA
--Lawrence of Arrakis--
I never thought for a minute that you were a "toothless hooch".
I do agree that some of the aspects of many cultures are backwards and barbaric, and that I would never want to live in a place where the cultures are practiced, but I do think that these are beyond the blame of one person or even a society of people. There are way too many cumulative causes that result in cultures, for a person to completely understand one.
Supposedly, there were good reasons why such restrictive policies as stoning whores for showing ankles on the sabbath were in place. Supposedly, this obsession with modesty (that's more or less what it is) served some purpose (maintaining social order?). Perhaps it still does. Who's to say it worked at all? As others have said though, not everyone in the middle east wants to live like that. Most don't. Most people just want to live their lives, and wish to be loved by a few people along the way.
I just don't want to blow anybody up. I ride the bus to work every day through some good and some bad neighborhoods in East Cleveland, Ohio, and I can't help but notice that people live there, and that they know relative happiness. They don't deserve to die. Granted, there are some real douchebags that I've run into (getting mugged is not fun), but you can't hold that against innocent people who live near the douchebags. I just feel such and such emotional urge to defend these people in an argument because I've seen both sides for what they are. (or at least I think I have)
I do agree that some of the aspects of many cultures are backwards and barbaric, and that I would never want to live in a place where the cultures are practiced, but I do think that these are beyond the blame of one person or even a society of people. There are way too many cumulative causes that result in cultures, for a person to completely understand one.
Supposedly, there were good reasons why such restrictive policies as stoning whores for showing ankles on the sabbath were in place. Supposedly, this obsession with modesty (that's more or less what it is) served some purpose (maintaining social order?). Perhaps it still does. Who's to say it worked at all? As others have said though, not everyone in the middle east wants to live like that. Most don't. Most people just want to live their lives, and wish to be loved by a few people along the way.
I just don't want to blow anybody up. I ride the bus to work every day through some good and some bad neighborhoods in East Cleveland, Ohio, and I can't help but notice that people live there, and that they know relative happiness. They don't deserve to die. Granted, there are some real douchebags that I've run into (getting mugged is not fun), but you can't hold that against innocent people who live near the douchebags. I just feel such and such emotional urge to defend these people in an argument because I've seen both sides for what they are. (or at least I think I have)