Boss Progression?

Golem:

registered on 2009-11-17 07:56:39 pm.

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Golem

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Golem: 2010-04-08 08:54:22 pm

Golem: 2010-04-08 08:45:59 pm

2010-04-08 08:42:04 pm

why are his lips so thick

This assumes no sequence breaking simply because I don't have any grasp on that yet. If you think it's relevant, please bring it up.

My main problem here is that I don't think bosses in Super Metroid offer any sense of cohesion; they seem randomly designed. (Why is Kraid designed the way he is? Is there any reason, or is it just random--did the designers just think it would be fun?) If you can refute that, please do so. I'm looking to make some sense out of Super Metroid.

I think bosses are a good way to think of the structure of Super Metroid. There's two bosses per area, more or less, though this requires thinking of the Wrecked Ship as part of Crateria and dismissing the Golden Torizo. If you think about it, bosses track your presence in a given area. You mostly spend the beginning of the game in Brinstar, and you fight both Spore Spawn and Kraid near the beginning; you really only hit Maridia near the end of the game, and you face Botwoon and Draygon close together. You explore Crateria near the beginning and the middle of the game, and this is reflected in the Torizo and Phantoon. You explore Norfair in the middle and near the end of the game, which is reflected in Crocomire and Ridley. In short, the sequence of bosses reflects the sequence of exploration.

And this makes sense, right? You have to explore to find a boss. You wouldn't fight a boss in an area without having done any exploration in that area, nor without going on to explore that area further. What's important, though, is that you never explore an area without facing a boss. You may nab the high jump boots before you face Kraid, but you're really only in Norfair two seconds when you pick up those boots. Also, you go right into Norfair right after Kraid, where you face Crocomire... so the structure and sequence still hold.

Put another way: if you move into a new area, you're bound to face a boss before you move into another new area. You don't leave Crateria until you face the Torizo, and you don't leave Brinstar until you face Spore Spawn (and, I would argue, Kraid). This isn't to say you leave Crateria immediately following the Torizo fight, but it certainly happens at some point before you leave Crateria.

Okay, fine, bosses are a good way of monitoring sequence. What can we learn about the sequence from these bosses?

My first thought was that we could look at boss defenses.

(You can tell how much progress I've made on the boss issue; this is the only thought I've had on the matter so far. I need a new way to look at bosses, and I'm hoping youse guys can offer some advice.)

Defense seems crucial to Metroid bosses. Mother Brain is within a glass case that's easily shattered. Why even have the glass case if it's just going to break apart in two seconds? To showcase Samus' power; Mother Brain's defenses cannot stand up to the power that Samus wields. After all, Metroid games are about--at least in part--a gradual accumulation of power. When Samus gets the Long Beam, she sort of stands a bit of a chance. (If you'll forgive a Metroid reference--I don't know what equivalent powerup you might find in Super Metroid. You might best relate it to the missiles.) When Samus gets the Screw Attack, she can truly kick ass. And there's lots of shades between; the missiles offer her greater firepower than any beam (except plasma? I'm not sure), and super missiles offer her something very potent: more powerful than the missiles, not as awesome as the Screw Attack. (Though Super Missiles do more damage to bosses than anything else in the game, while the Screw Attack won't do anything to bosses. Hm.)

So, it figures that, as Samus grows more powerful, bosses defenses would become weaker and weaker. Immediately, this works pretty well.

Spore Spawn - you can't get through its tough shell.
Kraid - you have to trick him into opening his mouth; otherwise he's invincible.
(The difference here is that Spore Spawn opens of its own will, while Samus is able to control when Kraid reveals his weak spot.)

Mother Brain - a joke of a boss fight, pretty much a cinema sequence. Samus rips up Mother Brain.
Ridley - while Ridley can do tons of damage to Samus, he also has no defense. He'll never deflect a shot or missile.

This soon falls apart, though. Phantoon goes back to Spore Spawn's level of defense; you have no control over when you can hit its weak spot. What, then, is it doing after Kraid in the boss sequence? The Torizo on Crateria has no defense, either. Why is it so early in the boss sequence, then?

So. Where I'm stuck right now is trying to get past this idea of boss defense. At the moment, it looks like it very much doesn't work.

Do you think it's possible to make sense of the boss sequence in Super Metroid? Do you think it's possible to explain why Draygon comes after Botwoon but before Ridley?

EDIT: Wait, you do head into Brinstar before facing the Torizo. Yeah, this isn't a very rock-solid reading of Super Metroid.

Thread title:

This assumes no sequence breaking simply because I don't have any grasp on that yet.  If you think it's relevant, please bring it up.

My main problem here is that I don't think bosses in Super Metroid offer any sense of cohesion; they seem randomly designed.  (Why is Kraid designed the way he is?  Is there any reason, or is it just random--did the designers just think it would be fun?)  If you can refute that, please do so.  I'm looking to make some sense out of Super Metroid.

I think bosses are a good way to think of the structure of Super Metroid.  There's two bosses per area, more or less, though this requires thinking of the Wrecked Ship as part of Crateria and dismissing the Golden Torizo.  If you think about it, bosses track your presence in a given area.  You mostly spend the beginning of the game in Brinstar, and you fight both Spore Spawn and Kraid near the beginning; you really only hit Maridia near the end of the game, and you face Botwoon and Draygon close together.  You explore Crateria near the beginning and the middle of the game, and this is reflected in the Torizo and Phantoon.  You explore Norfair in the middle and near the end of the game, which is reflected in Crocomire and Ridley.  In short, the sequence of bosses reflects the sequence of exploration.

And this makes sense, right?  You have to explore to find a boss.  You wouldn't fight a boss in an area without having done any exploration in that area, nor without going on to explore that area further.  What's important, though, is that you never explore an area without facing a boss.  You may nab the high jump boots before you face Kraid, but you're really only in Norfair two seconds when you pick up those boots.  Also, you go right into Norfair right after Kraid, where you face Crocomire... so the structure and sequence still hold.

Put another way: if you move into a new area, you're bound to face a boss before you move into another new area.  You don't leave Crateria until you face the Torizo, and you don't leave Brinstar until you face Spore Spawn (and, I would argue, Kraid).  This isn't to say you leave Crateria immediately following the Torizo fight, but it certainly happens at some point before you leave Crateria.

Okay, fine, bosses are a good way of monitoring sequence.  What can we learn about the sequence from these bosses?

My first thought was that we could look at boss defenses.

(You can tell how much progress I've made on the boss issue; this is the only thought I've had on the matter so far.  I need a new way to look at bosses, and I'm hoping youse guys can offer some advice.)

Defense seems crucial to Metroid bosses.  Mother Brain is within a glass case that's easily shattered.  Why even have the glass case if it's just going to break apart in two seconds?  To showcase Samus' power; Mother Brain's defenses cannot stand up to the power that Samus wields.  After all, Metroid games are about--at least in part--a gradual accumulation of power.  When Samus gets the Long Beam, she sort of stands a bit of a chance.  (If you'll forgive a Metroid reference--I don't know what equivalent powerup you might find in Super Metroid.  You might best relate it to the missiles.)  When Samus gets the Screw Attack, she can truly kick ass.  And there's lots of shades between; the missiles offer her greater firepower than any beam (except plasma?  I'm not sure), and super missiles offer her something very potent: more powerful than the missiles, not as awesome as the Screw Attack.  (Though Super Missiles do more damage to bosses than anything else in the game, while the Screw Attack won't do anything to bosses.  Hm.)

So, it figures that, as Samus grows more powerful, bosses defenses would become weaker and weaker.  Immediately, this works pretty well.

Spore Spawn - you can't get through its tough shell.
Kraid - you have to trick him into opening his mouth; otherwise he's invincible.
(The difference here is that Spore Spawn opens of its own will, while Samus is able to control when Kraid reveals his weak spot.)

Mother Brain - a joke of a boss fight, pretty much a cinema sequence.  Samus rips up Mother Brain.
Ridley - while Ridley can do tons of damage to Samus, he also has no defense.  He'll never deflect a shot or missile.

This soon falls apart, though.  Phantoon goes back to Spore Spawn's level of defense; you have no control over when you can hit its weak spot.  What, then, is it doing after Kraid in the boss sequence?  The Torizo on Crateria has no defense, either.  Why is it so early in the boss sequence, then?

So.  Where I'm stuck right now is trying to get past this idea of boss defense.  At the moment, it looks like it very much doesn't work.

Do you think it's possible to make sense of the boss sequence in Super Metroid?  Do you think it's possible to explain why Draygon comes after Botwoon but before Ridley?

EDIT: Wait, you do head into Brinstar before facing the Torizo.  Yeah, this isn't a very rock-solid reading of Super Metroid.

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

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Quietus

2010-04-09 05:25:44 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

First, I'd like to point out that there are more damaging attacks than the Super Missiles, even to bosses. Charged Plasma and Shinesparks, as well as Samus's echoes after said sparks.

Regarding boss progression. Having read what you wrote, it mostly makes sense, but I felt that you were looking at things from the wrong angle, in that bosses were the objective. I always look on the bosses as gateways, only serving to make acquiring your next upgrade (necessary for further exploration) more difficult. Metroid revolves around accessibility. If you do not have the correct item, you cannot progress. Therefore you have to acquire said item, and having bosses guard them makes sense in many, many games.

As for the order, the large majority in Super Metroid do make sense when you consider the item progression. You cannot go anywhere until you have the Bombs, so there's a boss guarding them - the Torizo. You can then explore the beginnings of Brinstar, but you soon come across a green door, so you have to look for the Super Missiles. A little exploration brings you across Spore Spawn - another boss / guard. Having acquired the Super Missiles, you can explore the next secion of Brinstar, and into Norfair. On the way, you come across the entrance to Kraid, but you cannot enter, because you cannot jump high enough. Norfair is heated, so you cannot go into many rooms, except the one containing the Hi-Jump boots. With these, you can enter Kraid's area, where you acquire the Varia Suit. Heat protection! Norfair can be explored.

In Norfair, you can't get through some of the rooms because of those damned gates keep closing. Exploring further, you come across the Speed Booster, which nets you the Ice Beam through the aforementioned gates. What's this for? Well, you can now climb the tall room in Red Brinstar, where you find the Power Bombs. You can now open the way to Crocomire, and get the Grapple Beam, which he's guarding. NOW you can explore the Wrecked Ship. You can also bomb the n00b tube, but movement is severely hampered, so it looks like you're stuck for now. In the Wrecked Ship, it doesn't seem that the boss is guarding anything, and you're soon back in Crateria. Exploring further, you find another route into the Wrecked Ship, and collect the Gravity Suit. Ah hah! Now you can explore under water. It also grants you protection from lava, but the huge lava-filled room in Norfair cannot be passed, as it's too high - even for the Hi-Jump boots.

Heading into Maridia, you can explore a lot, but are eventually steered toward Botwoon (who I agree is a little "I'm not here for anything."), and then Draygon. What's he guarding? The Space Jump, which enables you to jump repeatedly in the air, thus allowing entry to Lower Norfair. You enter Lower Norfair, eventually finding Ridley, who only needs to be killed because he's the last guardian blocking the way to Tourian.

My point here is that it's all about the ITEMS, not the BOSSES.

As for their weaknesses, the bosses do have them, and again, they ARE reliant on your equipmnt. Both Torizos can only be hit in their torso area, which is brightly lit. Spore Spawn can only be hit when he's open, by either Charged Shots or Missiles, both of which you have. Kraid can only be hit in his mouth, but to get TO his mouth, you need Hi-Jump to reach the ledge. Crocomire can only be hit in the mouth, by pretty much anything. Phantoon you have to wait for, but you can avoid his attacks if you have the Charge Beam. Draygon can only be hit in the belly, and would be very difficult if youi didn't have the Gravity Suit. He's also weak to the Grapple Beam, which you needed to get here. Ridley can be hit with nearly everything, but you're rewarded with being able to avoid damage if you took the alternate path when entering Lower Norfair, and picked up the Screw Attack.

As for Mother Brain, I believe the glass is meant to portray that she's susended in some form of sustaining fluid, and is only there for aesthetics. It is possible to be killed by Mother Brain, but I kind of agree with you that it's essentially a scripted sequence, and simply fits with the story that she's the mastermind behind it all.

Phew - that's a lot of text. I hope it offers some info you might consider. aiwebs_011

First, I'd like to point out that there are more damaging attacks than the Super Missiles, even to bosses.  Charged Plasma and Shinesparks, as well as Samus's echoes after said sparks.

Regarding boss progression.  Having read what you wrote, it mostly makes sense, but I felt that you were looking at things from the wrong angle, in that bosses were the objective.  I always look on the bosses as gateways, only serving to make acquiring your next upgrade (necessary for further exploration) more difficult.  Metroid revolves around accessibility.  If you do not have the correct item, you cannot progress.  Therefore you have to acquire said item, and having bosses guard them makes sense in many, many games.

As for the order, the large majority in Super Metroid do make sense when you consider the item progression.  You cannot go anywhere until you have the Bombs, so there's a boss guarding them - the Torizo.  You can then explore the beginnings of Brinstar, but you soon come across a green door, so you have to look for the Super Missiles.  A little exploration brings you across Spore Spawn - another boss / guard.  Having acquired the Super Missiles, you can explore the next secion of Brinstar, and into Norfair.  On the way, you come across the entrance to Kraid, but you cannot enter, because you cannot jump high enough.  Norfair is heated, so you cannot go into many rooms, except the one containing the Hi-Jump boots.  With these, you can enter Kraid's area, where you acquire the Varia Suit.  Heat protection!  Norfair can be explored.

In Norfair, you can't get through some of the rooms because of those damned gates keep closing.  Exploring further, you come across the Speed Booster, which nets you the Ice Beam through the aforementioned gates.  What's this for? Well, you can now climb the tall room in Red Brinstar, where you find the Power Bombs.  You can now open the way to Crocomire, and get the Grapple Beam, which he's guarding.  NOW you can explore the Wrecked Ship.  You can also bomb the n00b tube, but movement is severely hampered, so it looks like you're stuck for now.  In the Wrecked Ship, it doesn't seem that the boss is guarding anything, and you're soon back in Crateria.  Exploring further, you find another route into the Wrecked Ship, and collect the Gravity Suit.  Ah hah!  Now you can explore under water.  It also grants you protection from lava, but the huge lava-filled room in Norfair cannot be passed, as it's too high - even for the Hi-Jump boots.

Heading into Maridia, you can explore a lot, but are eventually steered toward Botwoon (who I agree is a little "I'm not here for anything."), and then Draygon.  What's he guarding?  The Space Jump, which enables you to jump repeatedly in the air, thus allowing entry to Lower Norfair.  You enter Lower Norfair, eventually finding Ridley, who only needs to be killed because he's the last guardian blocking the way to Tourian.

My point here is that it's all about the ITEMS, not the BOSSES.

As for their weaknesses, the bosses do have them, and again, they ARE reliant on your equipmnt.  Both Torizos can only be hit in their torso area, which is brightly lit.  Spore Spawn can only be hit when he's open, by either Charged Shots or Missiles, both of which you have.  Kraid can only be hit in his mouth, but to get TO his mouth, you need Hi-Jump to reach the ledge.  Crocomire can only be hit in the mouth, by pretty much anything.  Phantoon you have to wait for, but you can avoid his attacks if you have the Charge Beam.  Draygon can only be hit in the belly, and would be very difficult if youi didn't have the Gravity Suit.  He's also weak to the Grapple Beam, which you needed to get here.  Ridley can be hit with nearly everything, but you're rewarded with being able to avoid damage if you took the alternate path when entering Lower Norfair, and picked up the Screw Attack.

As for Mother Brain, I believe the glass is meant to portray that she's susended in some form of sustaining fluid, and is only there for aesthetics.  It is possible to be killed by Mother Brain, but I kind of agree with you that it's essentially a scripted sequence, and simply fits with the story that she's the mastermind behind it all.

Phew - that's a lot of text.  I hope it offers some info you might consider. [aiwebs_011]

Giganotabehemoth87:

registered on 2010-01-19 06:48:48 pm.

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Giganotabehemoth87: 2010-04-09 09:59:34 am

2010-04-09 09:31:58 am

professional chin scratcher

I kind of agree with the idea that the bosses in Metroid nes make more sense as they are like sort of hirarchys of there area. Hense there much increased defence. They can be killed almost in anyway. With nearly any weapen. So on a realistic leval they make more sense because they are not (unlike super metroid) impervious to any sort of attack on a particular part of their body. They are just like enemys, only are much, much stronger. For example Kraid in super metroid, comparitivley is probably much weaker in super than he is in metroid nes. And yet he's like 30 times bigger, or more. This I agree doesn't make sense. And why is his body impervious to attack. He's a big fat green lizard. surely can be penetrated. Ridleys tail is impervious to attack. Could make sense because it may have the consistancy of a hardened shell or something. Crocomire doesn't look like he would be impervious to anything. He has a big fleshy body. Yet he's probably the most heavily garded boss in the game. wtf. The fight itself is cool and is different. So we can let him off for that lol.

Apart from crocomire, all of the bosses, Ridley, kraid, Botwoon, Drayon, Phantoon, both torizo's, spore spawn and mother brain make sense on a gameplay leval because they match up to your power at those points in the game where you'd meet them at. In terms of how many hits they require to die. I'll list them in terms of health when using a super missle on all of them (I know you wouldn't have supers at the start of the game on the early bosses but it still correlates to the point I'm gonna make). I'm not sure on all of them but I think I would be accurate in saying the following.

Torizo = 2
Spore spawn = 2 or 3 (doh)
Kraid = 4 (or 1 missle and 3 supers
Phantoon = 5
Botwoon = 10
Draygon = 20
Golden torizo = Not too sure but I think it's around the 20-30 mark.
Ridley = 30
Mother brain = Again I'm not sure but I would imagine that it's over 30 before she does the deafening light beam.

I think the issue here is that as quietus said. There should be less importance (at least when you playing the game) on how the bosses correlate to the environment. But should be looked at as more gateways to more of the planet. Unlocking items to explore more of the planet. Secondly, your not gonna have 50 supers at the start of the game so the bosses naturally are weaker. It might not make sense realistically but for gameplay reasons, we accept it regardless.

Although Super metroid to me is one of the best games in the world. There are many things in it that just don't add up. Brought more to light by this topic no less. However I don't like the game any less because of it. The game makes up for it in heaps by being more an attack on the senses than an experience of proper cohesion to satisfy. No matter how hard one look at games, you'll probably always find a lack of cohesion somewhere in it. You get the impression when they were making this game they wanted to make bigger and better than metroid nes.

I kind of agree with the idea that the bosses in Metroid nes make more sense as they are like sort of hirarchys of there area. Hense there much increased defence. They can be killed almost in anyway. With nearly any weapen. So on a realistic leval they make more sense because they are not (unlike super metroid) impervious to any sort of attack on a particular part of their body. They are just like enemys, only are much, much stronger. For example Kraid in super metroid, comparitivley is probably much weaker in super than he is in metroid nes. And yet he's like 30 times bigger, or more. This I agree doesn't make sense. And why is his body impervious to attack. He's a big fat green lizard. surely can be penetrated. Ridleys tail is impervious to attack. Could make sense because it may have the consistancy of a hardened shell or something. Crocomire doesn't look like he would be impervious to anything. He has a big fleshy body. Yet he's probably the most heavily garded boss in the game. wtf. The fight itself is cool and is different. So we can let him off for that lol.

Apart from crocomire, all of the bosses, Ridley, kraid, Botwoon, Drayon, Phantoon, both torizo's, spore spawn and mother brain make sense on a gameplay leval because they match up to your power at those points in the game where you'd meet them at. In terms of how many hits they require to die. I'll list them in terms of health when using a super missle on all of them (I know you wouldn't have supers at the start of the game on the early bosses but it still correlates to the point I'm gonna make). I'm not sure on all of them but I think I would be accurate in saying the following.

Torizo = 2
Spore spawn = 2 or 3 (doh)
Kraid = 4 (or 1 missle and 3 supers
Phantoon = 5
Botwoon = 10
Draygon = 20
Golden torizo = Not too sure but I think it's around the 20-30 mark.
Ridley = 30
Mother brain = Again I'm not sure but I would imagine that it's over 30 before she does the deafening light beam.

I think the issue here is that as quietus said. There should be less importance (at least when you playing the game) on how the bosses correlate to the environment. But should be looked at as more gateways to more of the planet. Unlocking items to explore more of the planet. Secondly, your not gonna have 50 supers at the start of the game so the bosses naturally are weaker. It might not make sense realistically but for gameplay reasons, we accept it regardless.

Although Super metroid to me is one of the best games in the world. There are many things in it that just don't add up. Brought more to light by this topic no less. However I don't like the game any less because of it. The game makes up for it in heaps by being more an attack on the senses than an experience of proper cohesion to satisfy. No matter how hard one look at games, you'll probably always find a lack of cohesion somewhere in it. You get the impression when they were making this game they wanted to make bigger and better than metroid nes.

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

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Quietus

2010-04-09 09:54:53 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Giganotabehemoth87:

No matter how hard one look at games, you'll probably always find a lack of cohesion somewhere in it.

The most obvious one for me would always be why have they (the hero character) always lost their abilities every time. But if you apply that all the time, then a lot of games, such as Mario, Metroid, and Castlevania, then having your character start with all of their equipment would cause them to lose a lot of their gameplay. Their would certainly be no gradual increase in difficulty, as you'd have all of your attacks, and the only way tomake things 'harder' would be to increase HP, thus making fights drawn out and boring.

Golem:

registered on 2009-11-17 07:56:39 pm.

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Golem

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Golem: 2010-04-09 12:35:50 pm

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Golem: 2010-04-09 12:30:55 pm

Golem: 2010-04-09 12:29:23 pm

2010-04-09 12:27:27 pm

why are his lips so thick

I don't mean consistent in terms of realism, but more in terms of mood. I don't have a problem if Crocomire appears to be fleshy all over but has the best defense in the game. On the other hand, I would have trouble reconciling Crocomire as the final boss. If Samus is supposed to be overpoweringly strong by the end of the game, why would she have trouble attacking the final boss? That doesn't give the player the sensation of getting stronger. (Not that all games should make the player feel gradually stronger, but Super Metroid appears to strive for that with its item upgrades.)

The boss progression certainly does make sense in terms of HP, but I'm hoping to find something deeper to it than that. After all, if bosses were only about HP, then they'd be immobile punching bags that just take hits then die. Ideally, there's meaning behind the stuff that makes them more than punching bags.

Quietus, you're right that Super Metroid focuses more on items, and that is a potential place to find answers. But your immediate analysis doesn't offer a new sense of cohesion in terms of boss fight patterns. After all, Crocomire can be hit in the mouth by pretty much anything. And you can dodge Phantoon's attacks with the Charge Beam, but you get that far before you meet Phantoon. Same with the Grapple Beam and Draygon.

That is to say, boss attack patterns and weaknesses seem irrelevant to the progression of items. Why not have Phantoon take Spore Spawn's place, since you can get the Charge Beam shortly beforehand? In this sense, bosses truly do seem like gates and nothing more. You might be on the right track, though; the boss progression I'm proposing is pretty shallow. (You have an item? Now here's a boss that's weak to it!) Maybe Super Metroid is doing something more clever than that.

I don't mean to say that item progression itself isn't robust. Super Metroid follows that very carefully. You're definitely right when you say the game is more about items than bosses, I just think that it's worthwhile to consider how bosses work in the game.

If boss attack patterns and defenses are truly arbitrary--if there is no sense of cohesion behind boss design in Super Metroid--well, that's kind of exciting. In the long term, someone should find cohesion in Super Metroid where the designers may not have realized there was cohesion, and someone should find where there is no cohesion. Then maybe someone can design something new based on that, create a better product, and we're one step closer to understanding how video games may be utilized as an art form. (What's great about Metroid games is that they're a million times more cohesive than most other games.)

I don't mean consistent in terms of realism, but more in terms of mood.  I don't have a problem if Crocomire appears to be fleshy all over but has the best defense in the game.  On the other hand, I would have trouble reconciling Crocomire as the final boss.  If Samus is supposed to be overpoweringly strong by the end of the game, why would she have trouble attacking the final boss?  That doesn't give the player the sensation of getting stronger.  (Not that all games should make the player feel gradually stronger, but Super Metroid appears to strive for that with its item upgrades.)

The boss progression certainly does make sense in terms of HP, but I'm hoping to find something deeper to it than that.  After all, if bosses were only about HP, then they'd be immobile punching bags that just take hits then die.  Ideally, there's meaning behind the stuff that makes them more than punching bags.

Quietus, you're right that Super Metroid focuses more on items, and that is a potential place to find answers.  But your immediate analysis doesn't offer a new sense of cohesion in terms of boss fight patterns.  After all, Crocomire can be hit in the mouth by pretty much anything.  And you can dodge Phantoon's attacks with the Charge Beam, but you get that far before you meet Phantoon.  Same with the Grapple Beam and Draygon.

That is to say, boss attack patterns and weaknesses seem irrelevant to the progression of items.  Why not have Phantoon take Spore Spawn's place, since you can get the Charge Beam shortly beforehand?  In this sense, bosses truly do seem like gates and nothing more.  You might be on the right track, though; the boss progression I'm proposing is pretty shallow.  (You have an item?  Now here's a boss that's weak to it!)  Maybe Super Metroid is doing something more clever than that.

I don't mean to say that item progression itself isn't robust.  Super Metroid follows that very carefully.  You're definitely right when you say the game is more about items than bosses, I just think that it's worthwhile to consider how bosses work in the game.

If boss attack patterns and defenses are truly arbitrary--if there is no sense of cohesion behind boss design in Super Metroid--well, that's kind of exciting.  In the long term, someone should find cohesion in Super Metroid where the designers may not have realized there was cohesion, and someone should find where there is no cohesion.  Then maybe someone can design something new based on that, create a better product, and we're one step closer to understanding how video games may be utilized as an art form.  (What's great about Metroid games is that they're a million times more cohesive than most other games.)

Giganotabehemoth87:

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Giganotabehemoth87

2010-04-09 01:03:25 pm

professional chin scratcher

I think the developers were aware of having alternative methods to kill some of the bosses. In order to make it less boring. Instead of players always asking themselves upon finding a new boss '' well I should be powerful enough to kill this boss'' Apart from electrocuting draygon, which is cool and most people on their first play through would have grapple beam by then. But it's not until maybe you 5th playthrouh of the game that you might find out to do this method.

Secondly I have a theary that the mock ball or speed ball is in fact a genuine ability that samus has after she gets the morph ball. But of course lots of practice and discovery is needed to know this trick and utilise it. Which would in turn mean that the super missle that speed runners get before spore spawn are optional. Therefore the usually lengthy battle against spore spawn becomes a much shorter one. Should the player decide to battle spore spawn.

This would mean then that the game is more about samus (IMO) than the planet and indeed the bosses. If that makes sense. So lots of playthroughs of the game will reward the player as there's more to the bosses than meet the eye. as different methods of dispatching them become apparant.

I think the developers were aware of having alternative methods to kill some of the bosses. In order to make it less boring. Instead of players always asking themselves upon finding a new boss '' well I should be powerful enough to kill this boss'' Apart from electrocuting draygon, which is cool and most people on their first play through would have grapple beam by then. But it's not until maybe you 5th playthrouh of the game that you might find out to do this method.

Secondly I have a theary that the mock ball or speed ball is in fact a genuine ability that samus has after she gets the morph ball. But of course lots of practice and discovery is needed to know this trick and utilise it. Which would in turn mean that the super missle that speed runners get before spore spawn are optional. Therefore the usually lengthy battle against spore spawn becomes a much shorter one. Should the player decide to battle spore spawn.

This would mean then that the game is more about samus (IMO) than the planet and indeed the bosses. If that makes sense. So lots of playthroughs of the game will reward the player as there's more to the bosses than meet the eye. as different methods of dispatching them become apparant.

Xaggoth:

registered on 2008-04-08 07:30:09 pm.

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Xaggoth

2010-04-09 03:04:07 pm

One thought I had about the bosses while reading this is how they drop energy and items. They seem to go from easy to hard with maybe a couple exceptions like botwoon.

Bomb Torizo: Stops, does a pose, slowly shoots orbs
Spore Spawn: Continually falling spores but you have to dodge him
Kraid: Lots of slow moving nails, dodging the bigger ones
Crocomire: Faster balls, either shoots them or runs forward, somewhat less predictable
Phantoon: Lots of fireballs, even less predictability than Croc
Botwoon: The exception
Draygon: Gunk is tricky, there's lots of it but you can't get hit, little queues to when he;s firing it
Gold Torizo: Same balls, but he might start shooting beams, sort of an exception
Ridley: No recovery items
Motherbrain: No recovery items, not even from the rinkas

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

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Quietus

2010-04-09 03:34:17 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Giganotabehemoth87:

most people on their first play through would have grapple beam by then.

I expect that every player has Grapple Beam before then, as they would find it very difficult to figure out the diagonal spark or IBJ for the large room with the floating grappleable enemies. (The one where you exit through the top for the shortcut back into Red Brinstar)

Golem:

registered on 2009-11-17 07:56:39 pm.

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Golem

2010-04-10 06:08:30 pm

why are his lips so thick

Quote:

This would mean then that the game is more about samus (IMO) than the planet and indeed the bosses.

I'm not sure--it seems like a chicken and egg issue to me. Both the planet and Samus are required to have a game; Samus' mechanics are built to accommodate the planet, and the planet is built to accommodate Samus' abilities. You do have a good point here, though, in that the planet and Samus have deep interactions. The game could very much exist without a wall jump, but the fact that it's there adds a layer of subtle complexity. Stuff like the mockball and electrocuting Draygon fall in that category with the wall jump, too. It's a lush game, which is part of why it's so irresistible to study. I don't mean to disagree with this point at all--I just want to find what meaning there is behind such lush design.

Xaggoth, that's another promising place to look. With the exception of Phantoon, I agree with your assessment. In my experience, Phantoon is very predictable about his item drops. As for the Golden Torizo, it's harder to get items out of its orbs, as opposed to Bomb Torizo's orbs, since he's constantly jumping at you, something the Bomb Torizo doesn't do. I don't think you/we have to worry about Golden Torizo being an exception to that theory. It might be somewhat easier to get health from the Golden Torizo than Draygon, but not by much if at all.

[quote]This would mean then that the game is more about samus (IMO) than the planet and indeed the bosses.[/quote]
I'm not sure--it seems like a chicken and egg issue to me.  Both the planet and Samus are required to have a game; Samus' mechanics are built to accommodate the planet, and the planet is built to accommodate Samus' abilities.  You do have a good point here, though, in that the planet and Samus have deep interactions.  The game could very much exist without a wall jump, but the fact that it's there adds a layer of subtle complexity.  Stuff like the mockball and electrocuting Draygon fall in that category with the wall jump, too.  It's a lush game, which is part of why it's so irresistible to study.  I don't mean to disagree with this point at all--I just want to find what meaning there is behind such lush design.

Xaggoth, that's another promising place to look.  With the exception of Phantoon, I agree with your assessment.  In my experience, Phantoon is very predictable about his item drops.  As for the Golden Torizo, it's harder to get items out of its orbs, as opposed to Bomb Torizo's orbs, since he's constantly jumping at you, something the Bomb Torizo doesn't do.  I don't think you/we have to worry about Golden Torizo being an exception to that theory.  It might be somewhat easier to get health from the Golden Torizo than Draygon, but not by much if at all.

RT-55J:

registered on 2004-11-03 09:20:11 am.

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RT-55J

2010-04-10 06:54:05 pm

Armor Guardian

I think you're reading a bit much into things.

There is a clear progression amongs the sub-bosses (Torizo, Spore, Crocy, Botwoon, G. Torizo) and the main bosses (Kraid, Phantoon, Draygon, Ridley, Mother Brain). Each boss is stronger and asks more from the player (skill, items, ammo, health, etc) than the previous boss in their type*. The tendency of later bosses to be stingy with or not provide health/ammo refills at all is an example of this. Other than that, the only shared rule in their design is "provide an interesting combat-based challenge for the player."

Mother Brain is unique among the boss fights in that it (artificially) asks more from the player than is actually possible (similar to Giygas in Earthbound). After forcing you into a hopeless situation, two seconds before your obviously imminent death, a deus ex machina comes along and saves the day. As a result, you reach the peak of your power in the game and kill Mother Brain in the most awesome way possible, but only after a near-death experience. It's really quite cathartic (or something) on your first playthrough.

*Except maybe Botwoon, but that's a bit debatable. Actually hitting him during his desperation mode requires more precise timing than any other boss in the game.

I think you're reading a bit much into things.

There is a clear progression amongs the sub-bosses (Torizo, Spore, Crocy, Botwoon, G. Torizo) and the main bosses (Kraid, Phantoon, Draygon, Ridley, Mother Brain). Each boss is stronger and asks more from the player (skill, items, ammo, health, etc) than the previous boss in their type*. The tendency of later bosses to be stingy with or not provide health/ammo refills at all is an example of this. Other than that, the only shared rule in their design is "provide an interesting combat-based challenge for the player."

Mother Brain is unique among the boss fights in that it (artificially) asks more from the player than is actually possible (similar to Giygas in Earthbound). After forcing you into a hopeless situation, two seconds before your obviously imminent death, a deus ex machina comes along and saves the day. As a result, you reach the peak of your power in the game and kill Mother Brain in the most awesome way possible, but only after a near-death experience. It's really quite cathartic (or something) on your first playthrough.

[size=10]*Except maybe Botwoon, but that's a bit debatable. Actually hitting him during his desperation mode requires more precise timing than any other boss in the game.[/size]

TheNomad44:

registered on 2009-08-18 08:36:55 pm.

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Location: Pennsylvania

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TheNomad44

2010-07-05 08:35:54 pm

The wandering Space Dragon

Not sure if this will clear anything up, but I figure I'll mention it.
Gold torizo has a form of defense. He dodges missiles, and catches and returns super missiles.
Ridley also has a form of defense. His tail is immune to all damage, and can knock shots away. The tail will also hurt you when you are doing a screw attack. So, your boss progression thing might make a little more sense now?