Are you for or against gay marriage?

2009-05-25 08:52:49 am

Servin' you realness!!

Quote from xxikuto:

should be an option for "don't care either way." personally i don't care about other people in this world or what they do if it doesn't affect me. selfish but it seems to work out somehow

The first part sounds selfish but then when you go on to say that you 'dont care as long as it doesnt affect you' soesnt sound selfish at all. In fact that's exactly the kind of attitude people should have about this issue because if gays were allowed to get married then the truth is it wouldn't affect anyone negatively at all. Alot of people seem to think it would have some kind of impact in their life if gay people tied the knot. How they come to that conclusion is beyond me.

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

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view all posts by Cpadolf

2009-05-25 09:15:07 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Metroid Menace:

Quote from Quietus:

[rant] On a similar note, why are they allowed to have Gay Pride marches and parades? If the straight people walked around shoving the fact that they're straight in gay people's faces, they'd be crucified immediately. You want to be gay, fine - we don't care, but don't shove it in our faces. [/rant]

This was already addressed, but when you're growing up and see everyone around you grow up in a slightly different way than what you're turning out to be, then find out that who you're becoming is wrong no matter how much you try to fight it, you can find yourself digging such a deep hole that you'd much rather just give up. Then one day you see a fairly large group of people parading who are just like you, and who have the courage to stand up and be proud of who they are despite the oppressions, it's -very- motivational. Obviously you never had to deal with it, so before dismissing the practice with disgust, try putting yourself in their place and then ask yourself why.

I wasn't dismissing it in disgust. I was simply saying that gays are often offended when we shove heterosexuality at them, and yet we are expected to accept it when they do so to us. Double standards.

Quote from Metroid Menace:

Quote from Quietus:

I often find it irksome that gay people fight so hard to be treated equally, and then decide that they want a separate name for the ceremony, and then they want to refer to each other as 'life partner'

I've never met anyone gay who wanted a separate name for either of those things (but I don't doubt their existence). I'm pretty sure the majority want it equal in every respect, down to the naming conventions.

They have these things in England, and it's bizarre. If they want to get married, why do they need different names / terms?

I'd like to add that I don't believe that people are born gay. I believe that a person (and their 'soul', if you're into that) is simply a sum of their life experiences. Things you like, the way you speak, your sense of humour. I believe that they are all just brought about by what you experience as you grow up. A few examples: If 1,000 newborn girls were raised on an island by a number of female attendants, and were never shown any men in any way, shape, or form, would they all gro up as normal, with only the usual small percentage of them being gay? I don't believe so. I believe that the number of them being gay would be considerably higher, if not universal. Also, there are a number of reported cases of feral children. Feral children are children abandoned by their parents, who grow up with animals (usually dogs). These children grow up to mimic the dogs in movement, communication, and all sorts. Are the people who believe that people are born gay also going to say that these children were born as a dog? It may be an extreme example, but the same logic is there...

[quote="Metroid Menace"][quote="Quietus"]
[rant] On a similar note, why are they allowed to have Gay Pride marches and parades?  If the straight people walked around shoving the fact that they're straight in gay people's faces, they'd be crucified immediately.  You want to be gay, fine - we don't care, but don't shove it in our faces. [/rant] [/quote]This was already addressed, but when you're growing up and see everyone around you grow up in a slightly different way than what you're turning out to be, then find out that who you're becoming is wrong no matter how much you try to fight it, you can find yourself digging such a deep hole that you'd much rather just give up. Then one day you see a fairly large group of people parading who are [i]just like you[/i], and who have the courage to stand up and be proud of who they are despite the oppressions, it's -very- motivational. Obviously you never had to deal with it, so before dismissing the practice with disgust, try putting yourself in their place and then ask yourself why.[/quote]

I wasn't dismissing it in disgust.  I was simply saying that gays are often offended when we shove heterosexuality at them, and yet we are expected to accept it when they do so to us.  Double standards.

[quote="Metroid Menace"][quote="Quietus"]I often find it irksome that gay people fight so hard to be treated equally, and then decide that they want a separate name for the ceremony, and then they want to refer to each other as 'life partner'[/quote]I've never met anyone gay who wanted a separate name for either of those things (but I don't doubt their existence). I'm pretty sure the majority want it equal in every respect, down to the naming conventions.[/quote]

They have these things in England, and it's bizarre.  If they want to get married, why do they need different names / terms?

I'd like to add that I don't believe that people are born gay.  I believe that a person (and their 'soul', if you're into that) is simply a sum of their life experiences.  Things you like, the way you speak, your sense of humour.  I believe that they are all just brought about by what you experience as you grow up.  A few examples: If 1,000 newborn girls were raised on an island by a number of female attendants, and were never shown any men in any way, shape, or form, would they all gro up as normal, with only the usual small percentage of them being gay?  I don't believe so.  I believe that the number of them being gay would be considerably higher, if not universal.  Also, there are a number of reported cases of feral children.  Feral children are children abandoned by their parents, who grow up with animals (usually dogs).  These children grow up to mimic the dogs in movement, communication, and all sorts.  Are the people who believe that people are born gay also going to say that these children were born as a dog?  It may be an extreme example, but the same logic is there...

Cpadolf:

registered on 2007-02-14 03:32:46 am.

Gender: male

Location: Sweden

Cpadolf

2009-05-25 09:40:10 am

Hurr Durr

Quote from Quietus:

I'd like to add that I don't believe that people are born gay. I believe that a person (and their 'soul', if you're into that) is simply a sum of their life experiences. Things you like, the way you speak, your sense of humour. I believe that they are all just brought about by what you experience as you grow up. A few examples: If 1,000 newborn girls were raised on an island by a number of female attendants, and were never shown any men in any way, shape, or form, would they all gro up as normal, with only the usual small percentage of them being gay? I don't believe so. I believe that the number of them being gay would be considerably higher, if not universal. Also, there are a number of reported cases of feral children. Feral children are children abandoned by their parents, who grow up with animals (usually dogs). These children grow up to mimic the dogs in movement, communication, and all sorts. Are the people who believe that people are born gay also going to say that these children were born as a dog? It may be an extreme example, but the same logic is there...

Because of our sex drive a lot if not all of those women would likely have gay sex, as I see it though, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are actually gay. But it might be true that no one is born gay, the point is that no one has any real power over deciding whether or not they turn out to be gay. The fact that there are over one thousand animal species in which homosexuality has been observed makes me lean towards believing that you are born gay though.

[quote="Quietus"]
I'd like to add that I don't believe that people are born gay.  I believe that a person (and their 'soul', if you're into that) is simply a sum of their life experiences.  Things you like, the way you speak, your sense of humour.  I believe that they are all just brought about by what you experience as you grow up.  A few examples: If 1,000 newborn girls were raised on an island by a number of female attendants, and were never shown any men in any way, shape, or form, would they all gro up as normal, with only the usual small percentage of them being gay?  I don't believe so.  I believe that the number of them being gay would be considerably higher, if not universal.  Also, there are a number of reported cases of feral children.  Feral children are children abandoned by their parents, who grow up with animals (usually dogs).  These children grow up to mimic the dogs in movement, communication, and all sorts.  Are the people who believe that people are born gay also going to say that these children were born as a dog?  It may be an extreme example, but the same logic is there...[/quote]

Because of our sex drive a lot if not all of those women would likely have gay sex, as I see it though, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are actually gay. But it might be true that no one is born gay, the point is that no one has any real power over deciding whether or not they turn out to be gay. The fact that there are over one thousand animal species in which homosexuality has been observed makes me lean towards believing that you are born gay though.

arkarian:

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arkarian

2009-05-25 11:53:40 am

mindfulness

fully erect

you don't think nature/nurture is 50%/50% ? seems to be the most reasonable explanation to me.

Quietus:

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view all posts by BioSpark

2009-05-25 03:36:21 pm

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Not personally, no. I don't see any real difference between what sex you like and what sport you like. More people in England prefer football because it's everywhere all the time when you grow up. More people in America prefer baseball, as that's what they grow up with, but it doesn't mean that either is wrong or right, and I feel the same about sexuality. If a person grew up in a community where being gay was hated by everybody, I feel it'd be very unlikely that they would grow up to be gay. I feel it's almost the same way with things like smoking: while peer pressure plays a part, if all a person ever heard was that smoking was disgusting, they are very unlikely to end up as a smoker.

Anyway, I suppose the more important matter here is not whether gays can or can't do this or that, but about changing the attitudes of those that aren't gay to accommodate it. Some people are gay - haters should get over it. As I've said before, I don't really have any problem with any group of people as long as it's not thrust upon me. I remember having a similar talk about this elsewhere recently, and the question I posed that made a number of people stop in their tracks was: What if tomorrow your best friend told you they were gay? The main idea here being that nothing that you guys had done or experienced would be any different at all, so why should you feel any differently?

Not personally, no.  I don't see any real difference between what sex you like and what sport you like.  More people in England prefer football because it's everywhere all the time when you grow up.  More people in America prefer baseball, as that's what they grow up with, but it doesn't mean that either is wrong or right, and I feel the same about sexuality.  If a person grew up in a community where being gay was hated by everybody, I feel it'd be very unlikely that they would grow up to be gay.  I feel it's almost the same way with things like smoking: while peer pressure plays a part, if all a person ever heard was that smoking was disgusting, they are very unlikely to end up as a smoker.

Anyway, I suppose the more important matter here is not whether gays can or can't do this or that, but about changing the attitudes of those that aren't gay to accommodate it.  Some people are gay - haters should get over it.  As I've said before, I don't really have any problem with any group of people as long as it's not thrust upon me.  I remember having a similar talk about this elsewhere recently, and the question I posed that made a number of people stop in their tracks was: What if tomorrow your best friend told you they were gay?  The main idea here being that nothing that you guys had done or experienced would be any different at all, so why should you feel any differently?

BioSpark:

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BioSpark

2009-05-25 05:03:37 pm

hʌŋ laɪk

ə hɔːrs

there's no way that being gay does not depend on nature. how would we survive as a species if we weren't attracted to the opposite sex?

nate:

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nate

2009-05-25 07:16:57 pm

君だけの

光になると

not every individual need reproduce. see: insects.

Opium:

registered on 2008-08-19 01:51:50 pm.

Gender: female

Edit history:

Opium: 2009-05-25 11:22:38 pm

2009-05-25 11:18:03 pm

Servin' you realness!!

Quote from Quietus:

Not personally, no. I don't see any real difference between what sex you like and what sport you like. More people in England prefer football because it's everywhere all the time when you grow up. More people in America prefer baseball, as that's what they grow up with, but it doesn't mean that either is wrong or right, and I feel the same about sexuality. If a person grew up in a community where being gay was hated by everybody, I feel it'd be very unlikely that they would grow up to be gay. I feel it's almost the same way with things like smoking: while peer pressure plays a part, if all a person ever heard was that smoking was disgusting, they are very unlikely to end up as a smoker.

What do you base this upon? Do you feel attraction towards all humans but simply CHOOSE to only act upon it towards the opposite sex?

Are you aware that gay people have turned up in every culture going back as far as recorded history? Native Americans revered them, in Iraq they are executed - the point is it doesn't matter how society feels about them they still seem to appear. And I also hear people talking alot about how this 'gay' thing is a modern phenomenon but the truth is it has always been around but only now are people having the courage to talk about it and come out.

[quote="Quietus"]
Not personally, no.  I don't see any real difference between what sex you like and what sport you like.  More people in England prefer football because it's everywhere all the time when you grow up.  More people in America prefer baseball, as that's what they grow up with, but it doesn't mean that either is wrong or right, and I feel the same about sexuality.  If a person grew up in a community where being gay was hated by everybody, I feel it'd be very unlikely that they would grow up to be gay.  I feel it's almost the same way with things like smoking: while peer pressure plays a part, if all a person ever heard was that smoking was disgusting, they are very unlikely to end up as a smoker.
[/quote]

What do you base this upon?  Do you feel attraction towards all humans but simply CHOOSE to only act upon it towards the opposite sex?

Are you aware that gay people have turned up in every culture going back as far as recorded history?  Native Americans revered them, in Iraq they are executed - the point is it doesn't matter how society feels about them they still seem to appear.   And I also hear people talking alot about how this 'gay' thing is a modern phenomenon but the truth is it has always been around but only now are people having the courage to talk about it and come out.

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

Gender: male

2009-05-26 03:20:13 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Opium:

What do you base this upon? Do you feel attraction towards all humans but simply CHOOSE to only act upon it towards the opposite sex?

Based on nothing more than personal experience, like everything in life. Neither of my parents are interested in sports, and only one of the four of us (me and three brothers) are interested in sport at all, and he's only interested in football, the (pretty much) national sport. Both of my parents smoke(d), and all three of my brothers smoke. I'm saying that the environment in which somebody is brought up has a huge influence on what they become.

And I'm not talking about society's influence on an individual, as that's too big a net. I'm referring to their direct environment: their family, friends, school class, work colleagues; all those that have a direct influence on that individual.

I'd almost put it on par with religion: an individual growing up in a heavily religious environment is almost bound to be religious themselves, yet in a non-religious environment, you will still get a few that will choose a faith as well. But that's another subject...

[quote="Opium"]What do you base this upon?  Do you feel attraction towards all humans but simply CHOOSE to only act upon it towards the opposite sex?[/quote]

Based on nothing more than personal experience, like everything in life.  Neither of my parents are interested in sports, and only one of the four of us (me and three brothers) are interested in sport at all, and he's only interested in football, the (pretty much) national sport.  Both of my parents smoke(d), and all three of my brothers smoke.  I'm saying that the environment in which somebody is brought up has a huge influence on what they become.

And I'm not talking about society's influence on an individual, as that's too big a net.  I'm referring to their direct environment: their family, friends, school class, work colleagues; all those that have a direct influence on that individual.

I'd almost put it on par with religion: an individual growing up in a heavily religious environment is almost bound to be religious themselves, yet in a non-religious environment, you will still get a few that will choose a faith as well.  But that's another subject...

Opium:

registered on 2008-08-19 01:51:50 pm.

Gender: female

2009-05-26 07:06:28 am

Servin' you realness!!

Quote from Quietus:

Quote from Opium:

What do you base this upon? Do you feel attraction towards all humans but simply CHOOSE to only act upon it towards the opposite sex?

Based on nothing more than personal experience, like everything in life. Neither of my parents are interested in sports, and only one of the four of us (me and three brothers) are interested in sport at all, and he's only interested in football, the (pretty much) national sport. Both of my parents smoke(d), and all three of my brothers smoke. I'm saying that the environment in which somebody is brought up has a huge influence on what they become.

And I'm not talking about society's influence on an individual, as that's too big a net. I'm referring to their direct environment: their family, friends, school class, work colleagues; all those that have a direct influence on that individual.

I'd almost put it on par with religion: an individual growing up in a heavily religious environment is almost bound to be religious themselves, yet in a non-religious environment, you will still get a few that will choose a faith as well. But that's another subject...

All the comparisons you have made are purely cultural. Sexuality is something driven by biology with hormones, etc. Sure psychology/culture play a major role in it too, but sexuality is not totally cultural like all the things you compared it to.

[quote="Quietus"]
[quote="Opium"]What do you base this upon?  Do you feel attraction towards all humans but simply CHOOSE to only act upon it towards the opposite sex?[/quote]

Based on nothing more than personal experience, like everything in life.  Neither of my parents are interested in sports, and only one of the four of us (me and three brothers) are interested in sport at all, and he's only interested in football, the (pretty much) national sport.  Both of my parents smoke(d), and all three of my brothers smoke.  I'm saying that the environment in which somebody is brought up has a huge influence on what they become.

And I'm not talking about society's influence on an individual, as that's too big a net.  I'm referring to their direct environment: their family, friends, school class, work colleagues; all those that have a direct influence on that individual.

I'd almost put it on par with religion: an individual growing up in a heavily religious environment is almost bound to be religious themselves, yet in a non-religious environment, you will still get a few that will choose a faith as well.  But that's another subject...
[/quote]

All the comparisons you have made are purely cultural.  Sexuality is something driven by biology with hormones, etc.  Sure psychology/culture play a major role in it too, but sexuality is not totally cultural like all the things you compared it to.

Quietus:

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view all posts by Gaius_4

2009-05-26 07:34:33 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

I didn't say it was the same as them - I said I viewed them as being similar. I also didn't say that society impacts whether people are gay or not - gay people are gay, and that's it. My comparisons were meant to portray that in certain environments societal happenings and social / cultural experiences can impact the numbers or frequency of people being gay. In any society, regardless of its size, the percentage of gay people should be roughly the same, yet if you took an insular society, there would be no concept of 'gay', and it would e very unlikely that people would turn out to be gay.

Gaius_4:

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Gaius_4

2009-05-26 08:38:09 am

Yeah. There's no such thing as a gay gene. But if there were...

Let's say some gay men do marry women and (perhaps -reluctantly or grudgingly) have kids with them. They pass on their gayness.

Legalize Gay marriage and gay men are no longer required to sow their gay seed with icky women.

You've just committed gay genocide. Way to go you gay haters.

I feel like I've just summoned the evil spirit of TBob.

I'll retract my previous remark about (some) men going to prison and coming out gay. If that were true then prisons would be like homosexual (conversion) factories.

Opium:

registered on 2008-08-19 01:51:50 pm.

Gender: female

2009-05-26 09:22:25 am

Servin' you realness!!

Quote from Quietus:

I didn't say it was the same as them - I said I viewed them as being similar. I also didn't say that society impacts whether people are gay or not - gay people are gay, and that's it. My comparisons were meant to portray that in certain environments societal happenings and social / cultural experiences can impact the numbers or frequency of people being gay. In any society, regardless of its size, the percentage of gay people should be roughly the same, yet if you took an insular society, there would be no concept of 'gay', and it would e very unlikely that people would turn out to be gay.

How do you know the numbers of gays aren't consistent across different cultures and the reason for any variation in count has to do with cultural norms keeping people in the closet? For example, during Saddam Hussein's regime there were very few executions for being homosexual because everyone knew that coming out of the closet meant death. Since his regime was toppled and the americans were in power there was a sense of liberation and many gay iraqis began to come out. Since the power has been handed over to the new iraqi government HUNDREDS have been executed for being gay. Being raised in a religious/conservative environment does not reduce the number of gays, it reduces the number of people who admit to being gay.

[quote="Quietus"]
I didn't say it was the same as them - I said I viewed them as being similar.  I also didn't say that society impacts whether people are gay or not - gay people are gay, and that's it.  My comparisons were meant to portray that in certain environments societal happenings and social / cultural experiences can impact the numbers or frequency of people being gay.  In any society, regardless of its size, the percentage of gay people should be roughly the same, yet if you took an insular society, there would be no concept of 'gay', and it would e very unlikely that people would turn out to be gay.
[/quote]

How do you know the numbers of gays aren't consistent across different cultures and the reason for any variation in count has to do with cultural norms keeping people in the closet?  For example, during Saddam Hussein's regime there were very few executions for being homosexual because everyone knew that coming out of the closet meant death.  Since his regime was toppled and the americans were in power there was a sense of liberation and many gay iraqis began to come out.  Since the power has been handed over to the new iraqi government HUNDREDS have been executed for being gay.  Being raised in a religious/conservative environment does not reduce the number of gays, it reduces the number of people who admit to being gay.

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

Gender: male

2009-05-26 09:29:38 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Quote from Opium:

How do you know the numbers of gays aren't consistent across different cultures

I didn't say I knew - nobody can know. I was saying that in an insular society, where the concept of homosexuality doesn't exist, I do not believe that many, if any, people would be gay. Logically, this leads me to think that there must be some influence from society / culture.

I've stated my case numerous times now, and can't see why you must persist in quizzing me, or trying to convince me otherwise. I'm not the first person in this thread to make a comment, only to be 'attacked' by your own thoughts. They're opinions - let them be.

Opium:

registered on 2008-08-19 01:51:50 pm.

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2009-05-26 09:36:35 am

Servin' you realness!!

Quote from Quietus:

[where the concept of homosexuality doesn't exist

That's like making an argument about 'what if there was a society where shyness didn't exist' or boredom, or laughter, or greed, or jealousy, etc etc etc. It has existed throughout recorded history and is a part of the human experience. Your argument is hypothetical at best, and implies that you believe homosexuality to be some sort of cultural fad that pops up whenever certain conditions exist.

Quietus:

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view all posts by KennyMan666

2009-05-26 09:56:59 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

It's not an 'argument' at all - it's simply my thoughts. That's what I was saying above about you keep quizzing me. I used the insular society example simply to help explain my thoughts on the matter. It was not meant to be taken as hard fact, or have any substantial foundation - it's just an opinion.

When I said about the 'concept not existing', I simply meant the people being brought up never hearing the word gay, never coming into contact with anybody else, and therefore not having any idea what 'gay' is.

I feel like I'm going in circles here, so I shan't comment again unless someone else posts on the matter - or perhaps even about gay marriage! aiwebs_011

KennyMan666:

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KennyMan666

2009-05-26 10:02:23 am

Viking

Avatar!

Homosexuality exists in 'bout 1500 species of animals.

Reasons vary from socializing to doing it for fun to increased survival (no, you did not read that wrong).

It's a naturally occuring phenomenon. This is a fact.

The "concept of homosexuality" is not something humans come up with, it's something that has existed in nature for, like, forever.

And yet people insist on seeing it as something inherently wrong. It's the religion that's the far more unnatural concept in the debate.

Quietus:

registered on 2008-09-13 07:03:27 pm.

Gender: male

2009-05-26 10:22:48 am

Super Secret Area - Dead Ahead!

Religion just happens to be one of the biggest groups of anti-gay campaigners, which is ridiculous, as we're supposed to just accept that their beliefs are the truth. Considering the amount of evidence to the contrary, religion persists, mainly through inculcative indoctrination, and with no real explanation at all. While some of the ideals taught by religion are definitely worthwhile, there is also an equal amount of absolute gibberish and nonsense, let alone the violence and stuff. Why can't they just do away with the bibles, and teach all of the good stuff without all of the other rubbish?

I still reckon that religion was brought in simply to control the masses when the authorities realised that if the people chose to rise up, they wouldn't stand a chance. "I know, let's threaten them with eternal damnation to keep them in line!" "Great idea, and we can even say that it's not our idea, but some higher power's!"

Opium:

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