100% Speed Run

2007-09-13 03:39:40 pm

yeah

I have decided to do a 100% Speed Run for Super Metroid (along with my RBO TAS). I hope to use arm pumping to get a better time and afford more mistakes. I have been wondering, however, what the optimal route would be. Can anyone clear this up?

P.S. I hope to finish this before Hotarubi does. If he finishes first, I will seriously reconsider doing this run, depending on how good he does.

Thread title:

Gaius_4:

registered on 2007-07-05 06:10:26 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-13 04:42:47 pm

Will you be taking advantage of glitches? I (personally) hope not, but that's up to you. On the other hand... Take the Mock-Ball for example. I don't consider that a Glitch. More like a (mad) skill 8-) . But something like the X-Ray / Door glitch... That goes beyond a glitch and is more of a cheat -IMhO.

As for the best route...? That might be a toss up for whatever you can get the first time through, or go a little further before going one place so you don't have to backtrack to get something you would've had to get later -had you not... :o Er... Uh...

Like getting the PowerBombs early so you won't have to back-track after getting the springball later... So you can get the missles in the area before Kraid. I hope that makes sense. :|

That's just one example. Or the Brinstar 'clean-up' might be better to do after you get the gravity suit. Or you can get it on your way back to the Wrecked Ship...(?) That's what I usually do.

Edit: Sorry I didn't answer your question. I'd be interested in that info as well.

Will you be taking advantage of glitches?  I (personally) hope not, but that's up to you.  On the other hand...  Take the Mock-Ball for example.  I don't consider that a Glitch.  More like a (mad) skill 8-) .  But something like the X-Ray / Door glitch...  That goes beyond a glitch and is more of a [i]cheat[/i] -IMhO.

As for the best route...?  That might be a toss up for whatever you can get the first time through, or go a little further before going one place so you don't have to backtrack to get something you would've had to get later -had you not...   :o  Er...  Uh...

Like getting the PowerBombs early so you won't have to [u]back-track[/u] after getting the springball later...  So you can get the missles in the area before Kraid.  I hope that makes sense.  :|

That's just one example.  Or the Brinstar 'clean-up' might be better to do after you get the gravity suit. Or you can get it on your way back to the Wrecked Ship...(?)  That's what [i]I[/i] usually do.

Edit:  Sorry I didn't answer your question.  I'd be interested in that info as well.

hero of the day:

registered on 2007-02-05 07:46:38 pm.

2007-09-13 07:03:22 pm

Plain and simple, JXQ's TAS route is the fastest route. There is no doubt about it. Even though you all hate TASes, his route applies to speed runners too. I suspect ING X will just ignore this post, because he does not seem to accept kindly advice.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

view all posts by JaggerG

2007-09-13 07:34:09 pm

It's been so long since I've seen that TAS that I've forgotten the exact route he uses. And most people here don't hate TASes and in fact quite enjoy them, myself for one.

ING-X, you might also want to take a look at the topic I made for my still-in-progress 100% SS run. I believe I posted my entire route in there.

JaggerG:

is in the group Global Moderator.

registered on 2004-03-31 07:12:40 pm.

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Location: #metroid

JaggerG

2007-09-14 04:15:51 am

Shifty Leader

That M2k2 guy

Quote from hero of the day:

Even though you all hate TASes

Haha, someone's stuck in the past. Today's Super Metroid community appears to consist mainly of TASers. XD

Quote from hero of the day:

his route applies to speed runners too.

Thanks for clarifying that. I've heard TASes have different routes for real time and in-game time, so I hadn't been entirely sure.

Cpadolf:

registered on 2007-02-14 03:32:46 am.

Gender: male

Location: Sweden

view all posts by Cpadolf

Cpadolf

2007-09-14 06:23:03 am

Hurr Durr

Quote from JaggerG:

Thanks for clarifying that. I've heard TASes have different routes for real time and in-game time, so I hadn't been entirely sure.

That only applies to any% runs AFAIK, in a 100% run the only differense between ingame and realtime would be more pausescreens in the former.

Quote from Hero of the day:

Plain and simple, JXQ's TAS route is the fastest route. There is no doubt about it.

But for a TAS going through norfair varialess would still be faster right?

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

view all posts by Cpadolf

2007-09-14 07:12:30 am

Quote from hero of the day:

Plain and simple, JXQ's TAS route is the fastest route. There is no doubt about it. his route applies to speed runners too.

I just rewatched JXQ's TAS. One comment: humans can't perfect short-charge, especially in an SS. Plus, did he even consider the time saved by climbing the red Brinstar shaft first thing for PBs before Kraid? Both Hotarubi and myself have independantly decided that it's faster for unassisted runs.

Cpadolf:

registered on 2007-02-14 03:32:46 am.

Gender: male

Location: Sweden

Cpadolf

2007-09-14 09:08:09 am

Hurr Durr

Quote from BlueGlass:

did he even consider the time saved by climbing the red Brinstar shaft first thing for PBs before Kraid?

I would be surprised if he did not, however that is no longer even a question for a TAS anymore since PB's would best be gotten in norfair before going to kraid (If I have understood Hero correctly)

hero of the day:

registered on 2007-02-05 07:46:38 pm.

2007-09-14 11:11:03 am

The norfair first variant would be slower for a speed runner, Saturn pretty much explained it in another thread. I worked on a test run to see how much time it saves over JXQ's run, I haven't finished yet, but it saves less than expected. The only reason I would suggest it be used in v3 TAS is because it removes 4 door transitions and saves a minimal amount of in-game time too. Due to luck intensive item drops at the pipe bug area, it would be impossible to reproduce on console.

About the Super Short Charge. There is only one time in JXQ's run where this would conflict with a speed runner's run. The crateria gauntlet. All other shinespark locations are reproducible, baring the ridley short charge and baby metroid skip, though those have no influence in the route itself. As for the crateria gauntlet, I can only suggest that you do it early like JXQ did, but use power bombs instead. It was reported that doing the gauntlet last cost about 15 seconds. JXQ reported that getting the red brinstar bombs early cost more time than get kraid's missile later, and if I recall correctly it was about a 10 second difference.

The norfair first variant would be slower for a speed runner, Saturn pretty much explained it in another thread. I worked on a test run to see how much time it saves over JXQ's run, I haven't finished yet, but it saves less than expected. The only reason I would suggest it be used in v3 TAS is because it removes 4 door transitions and saves a minimal amount of in-game time too. Due to luck intensive item drops at the pipe bug area, it would be impossible to reproduce on console.

About the Super Short Charge. There is only one time in JXQ's run where this would conflict with a speed runner's run. The crateria gauntlet. All other shinespark locations are reproducible, baring the ridley short charge and baby metroid skip, though those have no influence in the route itself. As for the crateria gauntlet, I can only suggest that you do it early like JXQ did, but use power bombs instead. It was reported that doing the gauntlet last cost about 15 seconds. JXQ reported that getting the red brinstar bombs early cost more time than get kraid's missile later, and if I recall correctly it was about a 10 second difference.

072:

registered on 2007-04-16 11:23:38 pm.

view all posts by 072

072

2007-09-14 11:27:21 am

coral to complement blue

And to my knowledge, nobody has ever made it up the Red Brinstar shaft in one trip in real time. However, the Powerbomb has more uses than getting Kraid's missile early. And IIRC, it is essential to Hotarubi's route.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-14 01:20:09 pm

getting the red Brinstar BPs early has the following advantages:

not having to make a return trip for Kraid's missiles

breaking a few bomb blocks slightly earlier

saving a bit of time after hi-jump

skipping the tunnels on the way out of the bubble area

being able to go to WS via blue Brinstar, resulting in an extra etank of leeway in WS (very good for SS, since there are multiple shinesparks before the etank and health is probably low) and getting the escape shaft supers early, having more for Maridia and Ridley

being able to go straight up red Brinstar after Ridley, so the giant sidehopper PB room is faster

being able to backwards open the Gauntlet door and either speedboost SA or short charge shinespark through the first Gauntlet room, which is noticeably faster than any other humanly possible way

Also, would the quick charge JXQ does in the maridia tube really be feasible on console?

ING-X:

registered on 2005-11-19 05:27:17 pm.

Gender: male

Location: The Lylat System

2007-09-14 02:09:38 pm

yeah

Quote from hero of the day:

I suspect ING X will just ignore this post, because he does not seem to accept kindly advice.

What's that supposed to mean? Evil or Very Mad

hero of the day:

registered on 2007-02-05 07:46:38 pm.

2007-09-14 02:10:32 pm

Doing bluebrinstar cleanup early is a bad idea. The missile pack in the Old Mother brain room can be collected with the screw attack if done later on. The super missile reached by the shinespark can be done faster if you freeze the yellow blobs with the plasma/ice combo. The main reason that it is bad is because once you get into the crateria mainstreet shaft, you must travel right to get to WS. If done last, the time spent running from the mainstreet cavern to WS is eliminated because you just go to the left to reach tourian. It is just an overall shorter route. Think about it this way, JXQ travels past Samus' ship 1 time. The route Hotarubi uses requires the landing site be crossed 3 times, massive loss.

If you did crocomire early and collected the grapple beam instead of the ice beam, almost all those advantages you listed become moot. The only advantages left from doing red brinstar PBs's early is that the tunnel in the green bubble room is circumvented and you don't have to revisit kraid for his missile pack. Doing crocomire early also gives you another E-tank. The ice beam early requires a backtrack, which is kinda pointless when you consider that the ice beam is only used to collect the spring ball. The grapple beam can get the spring ball too, but without any type of backtracking.

ING-X:
You ignored my well thought out RBO route, hence you do not like to listen to kindly advice. Don't get upset about it, I was just making an observation.

Doing bluebrinstar cleanup early is a bad idea. The missile pack in the Old Mother brain room can be collected with the screw attack if done later on. The super missile reached by the shinespark can be done faster if you freeze the yellow blobs with the plasma/ice combo. The main reason that it is bad is because once you get into the crateria mainstreet shaft, you must travel right to get to WS. If done last, the time spent running from the mainstreet cavern to WS is eliminated because you just go to the left to reach tourian. It is just an overall shorter route. Think about it this way, JXQ travels past Samus' ship 1 time. The route Hotarubi uses requires the landing site be crossed 3 times, massive loss.

If you did crocomire early and collected the grapple beam instead of the ice beam, almost all those advantages you listed become moot. The only advantages left from doing red brinstar PBs's early is that the tunnel in the green bubble room is circumvented and you don't have to revisit kraid for his missile pack. Doing crocomire early also gives you another E-tank. The ice beam early requires a backtrack, which is kinda pointless when you consider that the ice beam is only used to collect the spring ball. The grapple beam can get the spring ball too, but without any type of backtracking.

ING-X:
You ignored my well thought out RBO route, hence you do not like to listen to kindly advice. Don't get upset about it, I was just making an observation.

ING-X:

registered on 2005-11-19 05:27:17 pm.

Gender: male

Location: The Lylat System

2007-09-14 02:18:27 pm

yeah

Quote from hero of the day:

ING-X:
You ignored my well thought out RBO route, hence you do not like to listen to kindly advice. Don't get upset about it, I was just making an observation.

Oh, sorry, I forgot to reply to your post (the one with the RBO route in it)! Embarassed

I was planning on using that route. Sorry I forgot to tell you; I can be very forgetful sometimes. Wink

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-14 03:29:59 pm

Quote from hero of the day:

Doing bluebrinstar cleanup early is a bad idea. The missile pack in the Old Mother brain room can be collected with the screw attack if done later on. The super missile reached by the shinespark can be done faster if you freeze the yellow blobs with the plasma/ice combo. The main reason that it is bad is because once you get into the crateria mainstreet shaft, you must travel right to get to WS. If done last, the time spent running from the mainstreet cavern to WS is eliminated because you just go to the left to reach tourian. It is just an overall shorter route. Think about it this way, JXQ travels past Samus' ship 1 time. The route Hotarubi uses requires the landing site be crossed 3 times, massive loss.

If you did crocomire early and collected the grapple beam instead of the ice beam, almost all those advantages you listed become moot. The only advantages left from doing red brinstar PBs's early is that the tunnel in the green bubble room is circumvented and you don't have to revisit kraid for his missile pack. Doing crocomire early also gives you another E-tank. The ice beam early requires a backtrack, which is kinda pointless when you consider that the ice beam is only used to collect the spring ball. The grapple beam can get the spring ball too, but without any type of backtracking.

Crossing the gauntlet with PB's (as would be required for JXQ's route) would take, IIRC, something like twenty additional seconds at least compared to a normal Gauntlet crossing, and probably a few more than one of the methods I intend on using. Also, during the first landing site crossing, the PBs are obtained, making a large amount of the horizontal distance part of the diagonal shinespark to the ledge. Also, remember that doing Crocomire on the first Norfair trip takes a good bit longer due to the fight being longer and not having space jump/spring ball, making the item collection slower. And remember that this increased time would be increased even more during a speedrun ue to human imperfection. Also, collecting spring ball with ice beam is slightly faster than with grapple, not to mention that there are occasional places where the additional damage and/or freezing effect of ice beam can save time.

In short, to sum it all up, it is my (and appaetnly hotarubi's) belief that PBs before Kraid is faster for unassisted runs.

I have to cut this post short due to needing to go home (currently at school), but I might expand on it later.

[quote="hero of the day"]Doing bluebrinstar cleanup early is a bad idea. The missile pack in the Old Mother brain room can be collected with the screw attack if done later on. The super missile reached by the shinespark can be done faster if you freeze the yellow blobs with the plasma/ice combo. The main reason that it is bad is because once you get into the crateria mainstreet shaft, you must travel right to get to WS. If done last, the time spent running from the mainstreet cavern to WS is eliminated because you just go to the left to reach tourian. It is just an overall shorter route. Think about it this way, JXQ travels past Samus' ship 1 time. The route Hotarubi uses requires the landing site be crossed 3 times, massive loss.

If you did crocomire early and collected the grapple beam instead of the ice beam, almost all those advantages you listed become moot. The only advantages left from doing red brinstar PBs's early is that the tunnel in the green bubble room is circumvented and you don't have to revisit kraid for his missile pack. Doing crocomire early also gives you another E-tank. The ice beam early requires a backtrack, which is kinda pointless when you consider that the ice beam is only used to collect the spring ball. The grapple beam can get the spring ball too, but without any type of backtracking.[/quote]Crossing the gauntlet with PB's (as would be required for JXQ's route) would take, IIRC, something like twenty additional seconds at least compared to a normal Gauntlet crossing, and probably a few more than one of the methods I intend on using.  Also, during the first landing site crossing, the PBs are obtained, making a large amount of the horizontal distance part of the diagonal shinespark to the ledge.  Also, remember that doing Crocomire on the first Norfair trip takes a good bit longer due to the fight being longer and not having space jump/spring ball, making the item collection slower.  And remember that this increased time would be increased even more during a speedrun ue to human imperfection.  Also, collecting spring ball with ice beam is slightly faster than with grapple, not to mention that there are occasional places where the additional damage and/or freezing effect of ice beam can save time.

In short, to sum it all up, it is my (and appaetnly hotarubi's) belief that PBs before Kraid is faster for unassisted runs.

I have to cut this post short due to needing to go home (currently at school), but I might expand on it later.

hero of the day:

registered on 2007-02-05 07:46:38 pm.

2007-09-14 04:15:54 pm

20 seconds is more than I would have thought for doing gautlet with power bombs. Another possibility is to follow the same route but just save the gauntlet items for when you finish up with blue brinstar cleanup and are on your way to tourian. To me it just seems that the backtracking is more than the time it would take to do the gauntlet without the screw attack. Another thing that bothers me is how much slower Hotarubi's test run was than even JXQ's first TAS. Now I know that Hotarubi's run was played in real time, but he did use many saved states to eliminate any errors. His test run essentially looked like a TAS because he redid every room until the room was played near flawlessly. You make some great points though BlueGlass, so I could be wrong. By the way BlueGlass, were you working on a 100% run? any news?

ING-X
I am happy to hear that you will be using the RBO route I posted :) Any progress yet?

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-14 06:10:11 pm

Quote from hero of the day:

20 seconds is more than I would have thought for doing gautlet with power bombs. Another possibility is to follow the same route but just save the gauntlet items for when you finish up with blue brinstar cleanup and are on your way to tourian. To me it just seems that the backtracking is more than the time it would take to do the gauntlet without the screw attack. Another thing that bothers me is how much slower Hotarubi's test run was than even JXQ's first TAS. Now I know that Hotarubi's run was played in real time, but he did use many saved states to eliminate any errors. His test run essentially looked like a TAS because he redid every room until the room was played near flawlessly. You make some great points though BlueGlass, so I could be wrong.

I'm not entirely sure about that 20 seconds. All I konw is that it is far too slow to be viable in a speedrun. If you look at the topic for my 100%SS, you'll see that I actually suggested the idea of Gauntlet on the way from WS, but after only a few minutes of testing, decided firmly against it. Also, doing Gauntlet after blue Brinstar in the way you suggested would still require those three crossings of the landing site you were so strongly against. First when coming from WS, second when grabbing the PBs, and third when going to the Gauntlet. And about Hotarubi's test run, you have to remember that he made that as an example of what a console 100% run using that route would be like with no mistakes. It doesn't have anywhere near the perfection of a TAS (except for a coule of insane short charges he does, like the one to get the Maridia main street missiles). And actually, the route I plan on using in my run isn't quite the same as Hotarubi's. Again, check my topic for more on that. And thank you for the compliment.

Quote:

By the way BlueGlass, were you working on a 100% run? any news?

Yes, I am working on a 100%SS run. I'm currently still in the practicing phase, as I want to be sure I can preform all the tricks with a good amout of consistency before I start making attempts. Here's the topic for my run:
http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5612

[quote="hero of the day"]20 seconds is more than I would have thought for doing gautlet with power bombs. Another possibility is to follow the same route but just save the gauntlet items for when you finish up with blue brinstar cleanup and are on your way to tourian. To me it just seems that the backtracking is more than the time it would take to do the gauntlet without the screw attack. Another thing that bothers me is how much slower Hotarubi's test run was than even JXQ's first TAS. Now I know that Hotarubi's run was played in real time, but he did use many saved states to eliminate any errors. His test run essentially looked like a TAS because he redid every room until the room was played near flawlessly. You make some great points though BlueGlass, so I could be wrong.[/quote]
I'm not entirely sure about that 20 seconds.  All I konw is that it is far too slow to be viable in a speedrun.  If you look at the topic for my 100%SS, you'll see that I actually suggested the idea of Gauntlet on the way from WS, but after only a few minutes of testing, decided firmly against it.  Also, doing Gauntlet after blue Brinstar in the way you suggested would still require those three crossings of the landing site you were so strongly against.  First when coming from WS, second when grabbing the PBs, and third when going to the Gauntlet.  And about Hotarubi's test run, you have to remember that he made that as an example of what a console 100% run using that route would be like with no mistakes.  It doesn't have anywhere near the perfection of a TAS (except for a coule of insane short charges he does, like the one to get the Maridia main street missiles).  And actually, the route I plan on using in my run isn't quite the same as Hotarubi's.  Again, check my topic for more on that.  And thank you for the compliment.
 [quote]By the way BlueGlass, were you working on a 100% run? any news?[/quote]
Yes, I am working on a 100%SS run.  I'm currently still in the practicing phase, as I want to be sure I can preform all the tricks with a good amout of consistency before I start making attempts.  Here's the topic for my run:
http://www.metroid2002.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5612

Gaius_4:

registered on 2007-07-05 06:10:26 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-15 09:03:42 am

I'm sure you all know this Embarassed

*feels like a noob mentioning it*, but I thought I'd mention for anyone that doesn't know...

Another advantage of the Early PBs is getting the missles in the wall of that tall tall room with the disappearing blocks (in Norfair). The only back track you do is through the room with the moving (bug) platforms to do the mockball back out through the gates (teh 'g8-h8r'). 8-) That is to say; Of course after you return through the other room you just went through to get said missles. Rolling Eyes

Don't forget to mockball underneath (usually -almost all of) the enemies on the way to the missles. aiwebs_008

The way it used to be (for me): I'd get the Norfair PBs 1st, then on the way back speed-dash through the blocks from the entrance of Crocomires lair, then shine-spark diagonally up the wall through that room to get the missles.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-15 09:46:58 am

Actually probably not a good idea, as getting those missiles then and going back the way you came likely takes more time than the time gained by being able to take a slightly shorter route to Crocamire on the way to LN. Plus it would use up two PBs, which are in exrtemely short supply at that point what with the small amount you have and the limited number of enemies that drop them with any regularity.

Gaius_4:

registered on 2007-07-05 06:10:26 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-15 10:16:53 am

Do you mean going onto Lower Norfair after fighting Crocomire? Shocked

I'm not that good. Embarassed

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-15 10:48:56 am

Fighting Crocomire is done after getting space jump.

ING-X:

registered on 2005-11-19 05:27:17 pm.

Gender: male

Location: The Lylat System

2007-09-15 10:57:25 am

yeah

Quote from hero of the day:

ING-X
I am happy to hear that you will be using the RBO route I posted :) Any progress yet?

Check the RBO topic to see my (most likely) optimized Ceres station run. :o

Gaius_4:

registered on 2007-07-05 06:10:26 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-17 11:07:18 am

At BlueGlass: Here's what I mean about those missles in the wall of that tall room.

I think that going through that one room that is just under the area with the gates after you get the Ice-Beam would be *quicker...

than

if you skipped the missles, got the Speed Booster, Wave-Beam, yes... even the High-Jump boots earlier... then on your way back up from Crocomires lair - to speed-dash to the left through those blocks and Shine-Spark up to the missles, then speed-dash back through those speed-blocks to go back up and get the super-missles in the room with the grapple beam blocks.

But since you mentioned the Space-Jump (which you normally get in Maridia) I guess were not on the same page here...? :-s

I do know there are 2 topics by ING-X. One: a Fast 100%'er, and Two: a RBO.

edit: *=Not that I've timed it... But that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

BlueGlass:

registered on 2005-10-05 06:20:34 pm.

Gender: male

2007-09-17 12:58:11 pm

What I was saying is that the current route for 100% doesn't fight Crocomire until after Maridia, when you have space jump and plasma to make the fight and item collection faster.

ING-X:

registered on 2005-11-19 05:27:17 pm.

Gender: male

Location: The Lylat System